Pro’s and Con’s of Elon Musk

[CharonY]

35 minutes ago, MSC said:

How exactly can we make the truth speak louder and in a more compelling and persuasive way than current propaganda does? Saturate the Internet with AI fact checker bots? 

That is pretty much known not to work. And no, the truth is going to lose out eventually in the social media landscape as the truth is usually less emotionally engaging. And emotions is what ultimately fuels and monetizes social media.

Traditional media had its own problems being largely concentrated in few powerful hands, but now their role is further diminished. Information flow is driven by individuals and their emotions now. And a big part of the problem is that I have yet to see good approaches to address that. Most attempts (e.g., better education) are still based on (IMO) outdated assumptions. I feel that this line of inquiry deserves a separate discussion thread, though.

[Phi for All]

On 2/21/2025 at 4:00 PM, swansont said:

Don’t forget the tax cuts

On 2/21/2025 at 4:11 PM, iNow said:

And access to competitor data 

And possible espionage? A background check from a real government bureau would have found the connection between Edward Coristine of DOGE and the KGB: https://www.newsminimalist.com/articles/doge-staffer-linked-to-kgb-spy-raises-security-concerns-in-us-state-department-fa2a8d56

The young man's history is not reassuring at all: https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/21/politics/doge-musk-edward-coristine-invs/index.html

 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, MSC said:

How exactly can we make the truth speak louder and in a more compelling and persuasive way than current propaganda does? Saturate the Internet with AI fact checker bots? 

It’s not an information gap. Emotional persuasion has to be countered with better emotional persuasion. Unfortunately, fear is pretty primal, so making people afraid of “different” (be it skin color or sexuality or whatnot) is pretty effective.

But step 1 is not repeating, and thus reinforcing, the lie. Trump won by a narrow margin, not as he keeps claiming, but people keep saying the m-word, and now that’s the narrative. Same with Musk and his purported intelligence. 

[Seten]

I recall watching a youtube video, for the life of me I can't find it. However, since the discussion of Elon Musk's IQ is up for debate, there was a youtube video in he claims he could have created a super artificial intelligence before he dropped out of college but opted not to.

Anyway, he could be smart he just doesn't want to give anyone too many clues as to what he's figured out. Or he could just be suffering from autistic megalomania. Flip a coin

[TheVat]

I couldn't give the tiniest s-t what his IQ or possible disorders are.  The "con" that should matter is the ethical conflict of interest between his businesses and acting as unelected advisor on the operations of agencies investigating him for malfeasance of various types.  

 

 

[Phi for All]

45 minutes ago, Seten said:

I recall watching a youtube video, for the life of me I can't find it. However, since the discussion of Elon Musk's IQ is up for debate, there was a youtube video in he claims he could have created a super artificial intelligence before he dropped out of college but opted not to.

Anyway, he could be smart he just doesn't want to give anyone too many clues as to what he's figured out. Or he could just be suffering from autistic megalomania. Flip a coin

Or just fucking say no to Nazis. I'll go with that. 

[Seten]

 

For reference, that's similar to what he was saying about how he invented AI supposedly. Weak AI maybe. 

[CharonY]

There is a big difference in what folks claim to have done and what they have done. If you always claim more than you do, you are wandering into con territory.

[Seten]

 

🤣I'm sorry, I had to

Musk's Matrix probably:

 

That was a demonstration of what the difference would be in pixels compared with the whole damn Imax lcd screen. He's either trying to say that because our social media devices mirror our behaviors and can be programmed currently to do so repeatedly or even base new "software" ICDs off of - that it could have a soul. 

True AI is more creative than that. It is a difference in dimensions. 

[MSC]

1 hour ago, Seten said:

I recall watching a youtube video, for the life of me I can't find it. However, since the discussion of Elon Musk's IQ is up for debate, there was a youtube video in he claims he could have created a super artificial intelligence before he dropped out of college but opted not to.

Anyway, he could be smart he just doesn't want to give anyone too many clues as to what he's figured out. Or he could just be suffering from autistic megalomania. Flip a coin

And I could win an Olympic gold medal in fencing, I just chose not to. Do you immediately believe me too? 

[Trurl]

Some people drive FORDs: fix or repair daily.

I drive a DODGE and didn’t know what it stood for until DOGE: Department Of Destroying Government Efficiency.

I see this as government trying to control the departments that support it. It is trying to save money that is going to be spent anyway just not on the things Musk sees as waste.

They are saying we will save money by spending less. And it sounds logical. But there is a problem: how do you define waste? 
 

I don’t like this massive job cutting but I don’t know enough about business and economics to weigh in.

I don’t think it’s about truth as much as opinions and feelings. We don’t always know the truth. We go by what we feel is the truth. This is why we can’t agree on political issues.

Does it make sense to buy Twitter for 40 billion and save 30 million by cutting the people who make it run jobs? Is it just a creation cycle where Twitter already is established and it is time to move to other projects?

I don’t like billionaires controlling the world. But they are responsible for creating a system the economies rely upon.

Bernie Sanders gave a speech standing up to the new administration. I liked it and agreed 10 billionaires shouldn’t have more money than the entire bottom half of people combined. But could Bernie create an alternative system that would fit everyone’s needs. What would be fair? How would we employ and feed everyone?

I’m not saying Elon is right. We need to keep him in check. That is why we fight over issues. A difference in opinion is good. It makes us think about our decisions.

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, Trurl said:

Does it make sense to buy Twitter for 40 billion and save 30 million by cutting the people who make it run jobs? Is it just a creation cycle where Twitter already is established and it is time to move to other projects?

From a business perspective no. I am not sure whether 30 million were indeed saved by layoffs, but Twitter used to be evaluated around 30 billion (and was bought for more) but by 2024 estimates but it below 1 billion. On the other hand, he is able to use it as a personal propaganda platform and has given Nazis and other folks a home. https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/x-twitter-elon-musk-nazi-extremist-white-nationalist-accounts-rcna145020

So for him it may have been worth it.

 

1 hour ago, Trurl said:

They are saying we will save money by spending less. And it sounds logical. But there is a problem: how do you define waste? 
 

I don’t like this massive job cutting but I don’t know enough about business and economics to weigh in.

Well, in many cases you really just have to follow what is happening. There are heaps of lawsuits, and at the end we can see whether the actions passed the minimum requirement of being lawful. Also there were repeated reports that folks were fired and then they struggled to re-hire them as they did not realize that their roles were essential. If it happens once it is really bad. But there are so many reports that is more like clown car situation.

The issue is that even for a company this could be disastrous, but since federal workers render essential and in some cases life saving services, making mistakes like that are really, really bad. Also, if you break things, it is way more expensive to put it back together. When all is done, I will take bets that the overall costs will be way higher than whatever they will save. Especially if we consider cost to the public, in terms of health, safety and essential services.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g3nrx1dq5o

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/doge/usda-accidentally-fired-officials-bird-flu-rehire-rcna192716

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2025/02/20/science/epa-layoffs-trump/?s_campaign=bostonglobe%3Asocialflow%3Atwitter&utm_campaign=Globe_Twitter

 

 

 

[Phi for All]

9 hours ago, Trurl said:

I see this as government trying to control the departments that support it. It is trying to save money that is going to be spent anyway just not on the things Musk sees as waste.

What about the fact that the departments that are being harassed first are the very ones investigating Musk's businesses? I believe CharonY posted a great graphic showing the ties. Can you address that?

[MSC]

10 hours ago, Trurl said:

don’t like this massive job cutting but I don’t know enough about business and economics to weigh in.

It's a bit difficult for me to stop thinking about ways this is bad for the economy to be perfectly honest with you. 

Let's start with the numbers, 1 in 16 Americans, works for the federal government in some capacity, across every industry you can imagine. Lets imagine for a minute, half of those workers gets axed. I think that's 1 in 32 Americans but by all means check my math there as I'm not sure about that number, but anyway, think about the unemployment rate from that kind of mass layoff. Think about how much spending that takes out of the economy, some of those people will bounce back, go to the private sector, but how long will that take? How much debt will all those people cumulatively create just to keep themselves and their families afloat while they find new jobs? How many will go bankrupt? 

That's the numbers, we haven't even gotten into the types of jobs axed and how that is going to have long lasting implications for the economy. Regulators and inspectors for example. Look at the price of eggs right now and look at how that issue was weaponised during the election. As if who was president was going to have any impact on that. Firstly, chickens have different periods of low to high egg production. Fall and winter? Low. So that impacts the price. Then there was bird flu outbreaks among factory chickens. Dyou want to know how any one person could get the price of eggs down right now? Unburn and reanimate scores up on scores of culled diseased chickens. That's what it would take. Now maybe take the inspectors out of that equation, maybe those chickens wouldn't have been culled, maybe you have more eggs on the market from diseased chickens. Maybe you encourage a mutation in some strain of bird flu that makes cross species infection 100s of % easier. Or maybe you just end up with the same batch of dead chickens except they died slowly and painfully. 

That's just one part of the food industry (although egg prices has a knock on effect to any product that requires eggs as an ingredient). Food inspectors are just one type of inspector. DOGEshit did a massive take back of firings in the nuclear energy sector because Elon Musk and the infinite cringe realized they fucked up and hired back a ton of people in that field because they were a part of America nuclear defense system and had national security clearances. 

If only every sector could react so quickly to the loss of its federal regulators and inspectors. What about vehicle inspectors? I bet Tesla would just love to be able to keep selling people cars with batteries that blow up. 

People seriously have no idea of the chaos that is coming, this is just the start. I can't even begin to describe all the ways this is bad but maybe my points will give people more to springboard off of and elaborate on better than I can. 

Side note; the only good Pro about Musk I've seen so far is that he is in fact mortal, but don't tell him that, is highly illegal! 

Although let's face it, we all know that MF will spend as long as he can harvesting people's organs to stay alive while waiting until some doctor somewhere discovers how to massively extend our lifespans, so he can swoop in, steal credit and then live forever... Okay I've watched too much Altered Carbon. Sue me, that story is fucking amazing. 

[Seten]

2 hours ago, MSC said:

some of those people will bounce back, go to the private sector, but how long will that take?

Yeah, but just the ones who finish their degrees and don't get taken advantage of by the corporate conglomerate.

Two rules before entering the workforce of either private industry or "federal businesses"; one, ask for records which include employee testimonies, because you never know if you're going to get ripped off. Two, investigate the sincerity of these supposed employee testimonies as well as, more fundamentally, whether they were real customers, employer hired actors, or family friends of that employer. You even need to be sure that those banks themselves are not in cahoots with any corporate conglomerates tied to that particular employer using federal resources. 

That turns the whole mechanized horror of modern tech back against itself in which Tesla/Space X, Musk's "businesses", are critiqued for but they are not the cause, they're just used wrong. Then you just have to find a way to get hired. 

Edited Tuesday at 04:53 PM by Seten

[TheVat]

2 hours ago, MSC said:

Let's start with the numbers, 1 in 16 Americans, works for the federal government in some capacity, across every industry you can imagine. Lets imagine for a minute, half of those workers gets axed. I think that's 1 in 32 Americans but by all means check my math there as I'm not sure about that number, but anyway, think about the unemployment rate from that kind of mass layoff.

It's about one in 50 are fed employees, per the Bureau of Labor Statistics.  Possibly your number extended the category to private contractors, military, etc.?  Anyway, I take your point, and also wonder just how our economy absorbs this kind of thing.  One thing that might happen is that, due to the layoffs, the government will have to use private contractors to do some things that, well, have to get done.  So there may be some shift towards the private sector. One unfortunate shift, due to the layoffs in the National Park and Forest Service, will be to more firefighters needed - P and F Service workers did a range of tasks that helped with fire suppression and control.  Some states will probably be forced to hire more people for forest maintenance and fire fighting.  I use this example, as it concretely illustrates how, when the feds cut back, then states scramble to cover the gaps.  People in places like Montana, however much they approve of Trump's version of "small government," don't want their homes and ranches, woodlots, tourist cabins, etc. to be incinerated.   

I notice no one in the MAGA crowd are talking about military cutbacks to match the domestic services cutbacks.  Sort of sadly funny, given that the military is the single largest source of government waste and ridiculous overkill programs.  If Trump really meant all his blather about isolationism and not being World Police, then he would be putting military funding in the crosshairs.  But, no, wait, he wants to reject alliances and make insane land grabs....

[Seten]

22 hours ago, TheVat said:

malfeasance

The spelling is maleficence. And no, I didn't use google to spellcheck. If I had to guess, I'd say you're maybe a high school drop out? It's okay plenty of people are. 

[TheVat]

2 hours ago, MSC said:

Okay I've watched too much Altered Carbon. Sue me, that story is fucking amazing. 

Is that the one with the glowing hockey pucks in the neck that contain people's minds?  I recall watching a couple episodes of that, maybe five years ago, then never got back to it.  There was an AI hotel run by Edgar Allen Poe, I remember liking that.  Probably should give it another try.  Another thread.  

10 minutes ago, Seten said:

The spelling is maleficence. And no, I didn't use google to spellcheck. If I had to guess, I'd say you're maybe a high school drop out? It's okay plenty of people are. 

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/malfeasance#google_vignette

Hope that helps.  

If I had to guess, I'd say you were striving to make a joke there.  😀

[Seten]

11 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Is that the one with the glowing hockey pucks in the neck that contain people's minds?  I recall watching a couple episodes of that, maybe five years ago, then never got back to it.  There was an AI hotel run by Edgar Allen Poe, I remember liking that.  Probably should give it another try.  Another thread.  

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/malfeasance#google_vignette

Hope that helps.  

If I had to guess, I'd say you were striving to make a joke there.  😀

Sure, if you want to go with the legal term. And why not? Just because something is a Sin doesn't mean it's illegal. 

[exchemist]

38 minutes ago, Seten said:

The spelling is maleficence. And no, I didn't use google to spellcheck. If I had to guess, I'd say you're maybe a high school drop out? It's okay plenty of people are. 

Bullshit. Malfeasance is a perfectly good word. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/malfeasance

Maybe it’s you who’s the dropout😁.

[Phi for All]

!

Moderator Note

Off-topic posts pruned and binned.

And we attack arguments here, not people, people. Lay off the personal barbs.

 

[MSC]

18 hours ago, TheVat said:

Possibly your number extended the category to private contractors, military, etc.?

Yes, and I should have clarified that number. To be fair that number itself is about 4 years old so it may not be presently accurate. I also cannot recall if it extends to military, contractors definitely. 

18 hours ago, TheVat said:

that the one with the glowing hockey pucks in the neck that contain people's minds?  I recall watching a couple episodes of that, maybe five years ago, then never got back to it.  There was an AI hotel run by Edgar Allen Poe, I remember liking that.  Probably should give it another try.  Another thread.  

Another thread for sure but yeah, I highly recommend watching it or getting your hands on the books. Pretty sure another season is coming. The storyline challenges our idea of what absolute power and absolute corruption is by adding immortality into the mix, then makes us thank our lucky stars we aren't immortal. It also makes you question deeply what it means to have our species best interests at heart, as the underlying motivation for the protagonists and their objectives, on its face doesn't exactly sound like the sort of thing you'd expect of a hero to want to do. I will say no more. Also, Poe is one of the best characters and his existence as an AI/hotel adds a complex sub-narrative to the show that really makes you think about what it means to be alive. 

 

18 hours ago, TheVat said:

One thing that might happen is that, due to the layoffs, the government will have to use private contractors to do some things that, well, have to get done.  So there may be some shift towards the private sector

Personally I think it will be a mix of that, but the libertarians will experience a bait and switch where, instead of shrinking government, Trump allows departments he has more legal authority over to absorb the departments he has less legal authority over. There will be nothing truly libertarian about this, fascist authoritarian regimes need big governments, they just get into bed with the oligarchs more to do it if they aren't communist authoritarian. 

 

18 hours ago, Seten said:

The spelling is maleficence. And no, I didn't use google to spellcheck. If I had to guess, I'd say you're maybe a high school drop out? It's okay plenty of people are. 

Was that called for? As far as I can tell, the correct word was used. 

Also last I checked plenty of idiots make it through college somehow, so even using the incorrect version of two very very similar words wouldn't mean you definitely dropped out of highschool.

By the way, I dropped out of highschool. So if you want to say it to someone it applies to, you can say it to me. I just won't give a shit or take offense, because I can still do more with less. 

18 hours ago, Seten said:

Sure, if you want to go with the legal term. And why not? Just because something is a Sin doesn't mean it's illegal

It's not always a strictly legal term, it can be applied to anyone who is in an official position or capacity, as taking advantage of that is? I'll wait. 

[swansont]

2 hours ago, MSC said:

To be fair that number itself is about 4 years old so it may not be presently accurate. I also cannot recall if it extends to military, contractors definitely. 

This says ~ 2 million civilians with ~3.7 million contractors. (The fed workforce hasn’t changed all that much since the mid-90s, unless you include the temp worker spike every 10 years to do the census, even as the population has grown. Graph in first usafacts link)

https://federalnewsnetwork.com/commentary/2023/05/opening-up-federal-contracting-jobs-for-more-americans/

This says ~ 3 million 

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-work-for-the-federal-government/

And another 2.8 million in the military, if you include civilian support, national guard and reservists. (~2 million military, 800k civilians as of September 2023. ~1.3 million active-duty troops)

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-are-in-the-us-military-a-demographic-overview/

[dedo]

Another show that deals with "digitized consciousness" other than "Altered Carbon" is the dystopian post-apocalyptic "The 100".

Regarding EM & AI, although am just learning about it, the new Grok3 engages in conversations, can review documents and make suggestions, & help formulate a plan for goals etc.  Another version, that I have not seen yet is supposed to converse via voice.  That is more advanced than a major portion of the posters on X than can only spout their ideology.

[MSC]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

This says ~ 2 million civilians with ~3.7 million contractors. (The fed workforce hasn’t changed all that much since the mid-90s, unless you include the temp worker spike every 10 years to do the census, even as the population has grown. Graph in first usafacts link)

https://federalnewsnetwork.com/commentary/2023/05/opening-up-federal-contracting-jobs-for-more-americans/

This says ~ 3 million 

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-work-for-the-federal-government/

And another 2.8 million in the military, if you include civilian support, national guard and reservists. (~2 million military, 800k civilians as of September 2023. ~1.3 million active-duty troops)

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-are-in-the-us-military-a-demographic-overview/

I need to double check but I think the number I gave, may have came from an Adam Conover Documentary about government in the USA, and the number I think includes the 13% of the workforce in state and local governments also, so I may (probably) have overestimated how bad it is for the potential layoffs by misunderstanding some of the data on this.