Pro’s and Con’s of Elon Musk

[swansont]

1 hour ago, MSC said:

I need to double check but I think the number I gave, may have came from an Adam Conover Documentary about government in the USA, and the number I think includes the 13% of the workforce in state and local governments also, so I may (probably) have overestimated how bad it is for the potential layoffs by misunderstanding some of the data on this. 

 

Makes sense. State & local includes 3.8 million public school teachers

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/clr/public-school-teachers

[CharonY]

Going a bit back to OP, I think we should clearly establish that Musk is not a trained engineer or scientist. He just runs business that uses or intersects with them. This suggest that he should have decent abilities in running large business.

However, in cases where his leadership is more transparent (e.g. Twitter), it seems that his handling of the business is rather heavy-handed an inept. It might make sense, as one could argue that Twitter was a vanity/propaganda project from the get-go. However, the ineptness coming to light with how DOGE is determining efficiency and is handling firing folks does not inspire confidence that they know what they are doing. This could, of course, could merely suggest that the overall goal is really to benefit his companies and burn the rest. But what is clear that we do not even see an attempt of demonstrating expertise anymore.

[Sensei]

14 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Going a bit back to OP, I think we should clearly establish that Musk is not a trained engineer or scientist.

What does it take to be considered a scientist?

BoA and BoS is not enough?

"Musk graduated from the College and Wharton in 1997 with a dual degree in economics and physics. That same year, he started a Ph.D. program in materials sciences at Stanford University, dropping out just after two days later to begin his first start-up company"

https://www.thedp.com/article/2022/11/elon-musk-penn-grad-wharton-twitter-auction

 

 

The company the article is about:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip2

 

The Musk brothers got $37 million for it (a 12% stake, so they didn't have the final word on whether to sell it).

[CharonY]

Yes, a Bachelor degree is an introductory higher degree. It can lead to a science career (usually via grad school), but often, as in this case, it does not.

[dimreepr]

This is well worth anyone's time:

A beacon of hope, perhaps, but I have a new found respect for the preppers...

Edited February 27 by dimreepr

[MSC]

14 hours ago, CharonY said:

However, the ineptness coming to light with how DOGE is determining efficiency and is handling firing folks does not inspire confidence that they know what they are doing. This could, of course, could merely suggest that the overall goal is really to benefit his companies and burn the rest. But what is clear that we do not even see an attempt of demonstrating expertise anymore.

The ineptness and pace of this, are demonstrative of a man who fully buys his own propaganda about himself, and like Trump has no clue how to run a government. Musks wealth also has an impact on his outlook and strategy when it comes to business. Before he really struck it wealthy, he was a bit more careful and thoughtful in his investments. As we saw with Twitter though, the kind of personal safety net wealth gives him, allows him to throw money at whatever business he buys and chops up, to prop it up when it makes obviously stupid business mistakes like firing crucial members of staff. 

Except now, he's doing it to government and the people that will have to prop up the pieces he messes with and pay for the damages, are the American taxpayer and the consequences are going to be far more destructive than some social media platform struggling to monetize after inept new ownership. 

As it stands right now, in business Elon Musk is too big to fail, he can prop up whatever business he wants, run it poorly, eat the cost until he figures out a way of swindling and cheating people with his new acquisition. 

It's also quite easy to see that Musk is growing more and more power drunk by the day, I've heard he's a drug addict too and the more people he screws over, the more paranoia is going to start coming in to play. 

The dude also sometimes believes we are all in a simulation and actually thinks it's a 50/50 case of whether or not we are. Bayesian statistics be damned. This is how you can tell he's no scientist. Believes a bunch of woo. 

[swansont]

Starship troubles 

 

“Starship Was Doomed From The Beginning”

https://www.planetearthandbeyond.co/p/starship-was-doomed-from-the-beginning

“This is why Starship, in my opinion, is just one massive con.

That is the real reason why Starship was doomed to fail from the beginning. It’s not trying to revolutionise the space industry; if it were, its concept, design, and testing plan would be totally different. Instead, the entire project is optimised to fleece as much money from the US taxpayer as possible, and as such, that is all it will ever do”

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

Starship troubles 

 

“Starship Was Doomed From The Beginning”

https://www.planetearthandbeyond.co/p/starship-was-doomed-from-the-beginning

“This is why Starship, in my opinion, is just one massive con.

That is the real reason why Starship was doomed to fail from the beginning. It’s not trying to revolutionise the space industry; if it were, its concept, design, and testing plan would be totally different. Instead, the entire project is optimised to fleece as much money from the US taxpayer as possible, and as such, that is all it will ever do”

That seems like his business model. Provide a promising prototype, but heavily oversell future potential. Use "iterative development" to continuously filch funding. Leverage the sunk cost fallacy and promise a solution just around the corner. Once it becomes too obvious that it is a non-starter, distract with another stretch goal (let's build robots, or just go to Mars) and start all over again.

[swansont]

23 minutes ago, CharonY said:

That seems like his business model. Provide a promising prototype, but heavily oversell future potential. Use "iterative development" to continuously filch funding. Leverage the sunk cost fallacy and promise a solution just around the corner. Once it becomes too obvious that it is a non-starter, distract with another stretch goal (let's build robots, or just go to Mars) and start all over again.

And now he’s ingrained in the government processes to keep funneling money to him.

[CharonY]

36 minutes ago, swansont said:

And now he’s ingrained in the government processes to keep funneling money to him.

Now that is efficiency.

[MigL]

We had a discussion about E Musk 5-6 years ago, regarding manned spaceflight to Mars.
I believe I was in a minority back then, but I already recognized him as an asshole.

[CharonY]

4 minutes ago, MigL said:

We had a discussion about E Musk 5-6 years ago, regarding manned spaceflight to Mars.
I believe I was in a minority back then, but I already recognized him as an asshole.

I think the public opinion of him changed once he got more public exposure outside of product announcements. Such as when the kids were trapped in a cave. I also think we had younger and more impressionable members for a while here back then.

[MSC]

5 hours ago, MigL said:

We had a discussion about E Musk 5-6 years ago, regarding manned spaceflight to Mars.
I believe I was in a minority back then, but I already recognized him as an asshole.

My best friend of the time was cringily into him and I dunno why, something about seeing someone else fanboy or fangirl about something can kind of put me off it and the one thing about the majority of my role models in life that is the same, is they are all mostly fictional. I deeply distrust the rich and famous as a matter of personal policy. Someone needs to have been dead for awhile before I'll look up to them 😂 present company excluded. 

[dimreepr]

14 hours ago, MSC said:

My best friend of the time was cringily into him and I dunno why, something about seeing someone else fanboy or fangirl about something can kind of put me off it and the one thing about the majority of my role models in life that is the same, is they are all mostly fictional. I deeply distrust the rich and famous as a matter of personal policy. Someone needs to have been dead for awhile before I'll look up to them 😂 present company excluded. 

Why am I reminded of "The catcher in the rye"?

[Trurl]

Well we think Elon is a jerk because of how he treats laborers. Random firing may work by creating competition in his business. But government has a social side.

I am impressed by SpaceX. Elon was going to buy a Russian rocket until they kept screwing with him and jacked up the price. It was bold to start a company that made rockets.

Elon the scientist I respect. I expect him to have a few quarks. He is arrogant and demanding but that is to be expected.

The problem is that he shouldn’t be in our government. Firing hard works and breaking services and protections of already established government programs isn’t cutting waste. I don’t like it.

My instructor once told me about a NASA engineer who was laid off. He couldn’t find work because he was over qualified. So he worked as a janitor mopping floors. He was brilliant and that is the best job he could get.

[CharonY]

34 minutes ago, Trurl said:

Elon the scientist I respect. I expect him to have a few quarks. He is arrogant and demanding but that is to be expected.

Except again, he is business man, but not a scientist. Bezos founded Blue Origin, but no one calls him a scientist because of that.

It is fine to say that one admires his entrepreneurship and his business sense (until recently, perhaps). But I don't think it helps your argument by describing him as something he isn't.

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 3/18/2025 at 8:49 PM, MSC said:

My best friend of the time was cringily into him and I dunno why, something about seeing someone else fanboy or fangirl about something can kind of put me off it and the one thing about the majority of my role models in life that is the same, is they are all mostly fictional. I deeply distrust the rich and famous as a matter of personal policy. Someone needs to have been dead for awhile before I'll look up to them 😂 present company excluded. 

I'm dying to get some respect here!

[John Cuthber]

I'm trying to work out if Trurl is being ironic here; nothing he said makes sense.
 

On 2/21/2025 at 4:44 AM, Trurl said:

I think he did make important contributions to SpaceX

I think he didn't.
But unless either of us has evidence to support our beliefs they are not worth anything.

On 2/21/2025 at 4:44 AM, Trurl said:

I think he is a genius.

Ditto.

On 2/21/2025 at 4:44 AM, Trurl said:

He is following the standard book of a mad scientist in that he wants control.

Dictators are seldom scientists.

On 2/21/2025 at 4:44 AM, Trurl said:

So he decides who has a job. Again this proves he is a genius

Non seq.

On 2/21/2025 at 4:44 AM, Trurl said:

He convinced everyone this saves money

He has asserted that this saves money.
The evidence says otherwise.

On 2/21/2025 at 4:44 AM, Trurl said:

But it makes perfect sense to have a genius in charge of the economy, government, and people’s lives

Yes, but you actually have Trump and Musk.
Have you seen the stock market lately?


 

8 hours ago, Trurl said:

Elon the scientist I respect.

What science has he done?

[exchemist]

9 hours ago, Trurl said:

Well we think Elon is a jerk because of how he treats laborers. Random firing may work by creating competition in his business. But government has a social side.

I am impressed by SpaceX. Elon was going to buy a Russian rocket until they kept screwing with him and jacked up the price. It was bold to start a company that made rockets.

Elon the scientist I respect. I expect him to have a few quarks. He is arrogant and demanding but that is to be expected.

The problem is that he shouldn’t be in our government. Firing hard works and breaking services and protections of already established government programs isn’t cutting waste. I don’t like it.

My instructor once told me about a NASA engineer who was laid off. He couldn’t find work because he was over qualified. So he worked as a janitor mopping floors. He was brilliant and that is the best job he could get.

No, we think he is a dangerous fascist, one of many in Trump's administration with contempt for democracy, who is working night and day to destroy it and replace it with one party rule.  That's a tad more serious than treating workers poorly. This DOGE campaign is a "terror", intended to terrify everybody working in government so that they keep quiet and do the will of Trump and his acolytes, regardless of wisdom or legality. DOGE is also physically shutting down - by armed assault -  agencies that have nothing to do with the government, without any legal authority. This is getting increasingly like Hitler's Brownshirts. Musk also interferes in the politics of other countries, spreading lies and supporting  neo-Nazi groups and individuals.    

Edited Thursday at 12:14 PM by exchemist

[MSC]

9 hours ago, Trurl said:

Random firing may work by creating competition in his business.

Seldom does having your own employees compete with each other lead to good outcomes for your business. They are supposed to compete with your competition. Right now the American governments competition is every other government and most are laughing at the USA now. 

 

9 hours ago, Trurl said:

am impressed by SpaceX. Elon was going to buy a Russian rocket until they kept screwing with him and jacked up the price. It was bold to start a company that made rockets.

Elon the scientist I respect. I expect him to have a few quarks. He is arrogant and demanding but that is to be expected.

The problem is that he shouldn’t be in our government. Firing hard works and breaking services and protections of already established government programs isn’t cutting waste. I don’t like it.

My instructor once told me about a NASA engineer who was laid off. He couldn’t find work because he was over qualified. So he worked as a janitor mopping floors. He was brilliant and that is the best job he could get.

Show us your news feed. 

Personally I'm wondering if Musk and Trump are trying to orchestrate a recession. With a recession and stock prices going down, the Trump camp, meaning the government and the business entities now supporting it are going to consolidate more economic power by taking a bigger share of the stock market. They probably believe they can tear it all down and rebuild it back up (ignoring the damage and harm this will do to people) better than before but with more control. If people don't like it and protest it too much, Trump tries to declare martial law. They are goading and provoking the American public so they can get to the next phase of installing a dictatorship, which is declaring martial law. 

@Trurl I don't know what propaganda you're reading but I think you need to start sharing your sources. You're being manipulated and taken advantage of when you believe this shit.

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, MSC said:

Seldom does having your own employees compete with each other lead to good outcomes for your business. They are supposed to compete with your competition. Right now the American governments competition is every other government and most are laughing at the USA now. 

Not to mention the probability of randomly firing the people needed to maintain the viability of the business, I believe that Russia is currently on the brink of that particular precipice... 

They've had longer to practice. 😉 

[Trurl]

On 3/20/2025 at 8:11 AM, MSC said:

@Trurl I don't know what propaganda you're reading but I think you need to start sharing your sources. You're being manipulated and taken advantage of when you believe this shit.

Well the part about Musk looking to buy Russian rockets and then deciding to build his own is from the Walter Isaacson biography.

Im just saying that Musk gets things done in the private sector but is not good in government. The goal isn’t always what saves money. But Musk isn’t always in it for money. That is not me saying that. He invested the PayPal money into other businesses.

I don’t know what motivates him. I don’t know why he wants to dismantle existing government agencies.

As for your theory of planning a recession, maybe. I’m not sure about the martial law. The news isn’t worth watching. I’m now critical of Trump and Elon. They know the middle class is concerned with good jobs and being able to afford a home. They didn’t explain how a world wide recession improves the economy. I say world wide because the global economy will be effected imho.

[dimreepr]

10 hours ago, Trurl said:

Im just saying that Musk gets things done in the private sector but is not good in government. The goal isn’t always what saves money. But Musk isn’t always in it for money. That is not me saying that. He invested the PayPal money into other businesses.

Indeed, that's a gambler's strategy...

Talking about rats and their idioms:

Quote

 

“Put a rat in a cage and give it 2 water bottles. One is just water and one is water laced with heroin or cocaine. The rat will almost always prefer the drugged water and almost always kill itself in a couple of weeks. That is our theory of addiction.

Bruce comes along in the ’70s and said, “Well, hang on. We’re putting the rat in an empty cage. It has nothing to do. Let’s try this a bit differently.” So he built Rat Park, and Rat Park is like heaven for rats. Everything a rat could want is in Rat Park. Lovely food. Lots of sex. Other rats to befriend. Colored balls. Plus both water bottles, one with water and one with drugged water. But here’s what's fascinating: In Rat Park, they don’t like the drugged water. They hardly use it.

None of them overdose. None of them use in a way that looks like compulsion or addiction. What Bruce did shows that both the right-wing and left-wing theories of addiction are wrong. The right-wing theory is that it’s a moral failing, you’re a hedonist, you party too hard. The left-wing theory is that it takes you over, your brain is hijacked. Bruce says it’s not your morality, it’s not your brain; it’s your cage. Addiction is largely an adaptation to your environment.

Now, we created a society where significant numbers of us can't bear to be present in our lives without being on something, drink, drugs, sex, shopping... We’ve created a hyper consumerist, hyper individualist, isolated world that is, for many of us, more like the first cage than the bonded, connected cages we need.

The opposite of addiction is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is connection. And our whole society, the engine of it, is geared toward making us connect with things not people. You are not a good consumer citizen if you spend your time bonding with the people around you and not stuff. In fact, we are trained from a young age to focus our hopes, dreams, and ambitions on things to buy and consume. Drug addiction is a subset of that."

 

 

[dedo]

One positive for Musk, is recently Congresswoman AOC has been raising large crowds running against "oligarchs".  It seems maybe she is starting her presidential campaign early.

If she turns out to be good, then Musk may have gotten her elected.

[swansont]

8 hours ago, dedo said:

One positive for Musk, is recently Congresswoman AOC has been raising large crowds running against "oligarchs".  It seems maybe she is starting her presidential campaign early.

If she turns out to be good, then Musk may have gotten her elected.

I think she runs for senate first. Gillibrand’s proven to be a wet noodle these past two months, so maybe AOC runs for her seat next year.