are bees concious?

[ALine]

21 minutes ago, DrmDoc said:

I agree; there's no understanding of consciousness without a foundation for reaching that understanding. Definitions based on faith, philosophies, and conjecture aren't a proper foundation because, imo, they reference notions and ideas that are either untestable or unobservable.  Our spectulations about the nature of consciousness in other organisms invariably relate to the manifest nature of that quality in humans.  Therefore, our definitions and basis for understanding consciousness should arise from our understanding of how that quality arises in humans.  That understanding enables our ability to identify consciousness equivalency in other species. 

so true.

[joigus]

@ALine, can you propose an experiment that would conclude, without a shadow of a doubt, that bees must be conscious and not otherwise? A well-defined, widely-enough agreed-upon Chinese-room argument?

Furthermore, what is the "otherwise"? Is there such a thing as being semi-conscious? Conscious but not so much? Dual, or n-valued consciousness? Consciousness without an identity? Perhaps "ambiguous" --in some sense to be defined-- consciousness? Wholistic --in some sense to be defined-- consciousness?

IOW --and here's the tricky point--, what is the non-conscious against which we can test the conscious?

The possibilities could be endless, especially once we realise our notion of consciousness probably comes from being human and experiencing it in our own human way.

That's probably why @iNow was asking you for a definition. People of science normally ask for a definition first. Then, an experiment.

[Luc Turpin]

Consciousness integrates both self-awareness and environmental awareness, shaping how we perceive reality.

While ants, unlike bees, have been shown to pass the self-awareness mirror test, bees exhibit remarkable environmental awareness. They navigate complex landscapes, evaluate flower options, and make swift decisions in a constantly changing environment. Although it hasn't been definitively shown that bees possess self-awareness, their keen awareness of their surroundings is undeniable.

Edited Saturday at 01:12 PM by Luc Turpin

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

Consciousness integrates both self-awareness and environmental awareness, shaping how we perceive reality.

While ants, unlike bees, have been shown to pass the self-awareness mirror test, bees exhibit remarkable environmental awareness. They navigate complex landscapes, evaluate flower options, and make swift decisions in a constantly changing environment. Although it hasn't been definitively shown that bees possess self-awareness, their keen awareness of their surroundings is undeniable.

So much bullshit and so little awareness of the depth... 🙄

[DrmDoc]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

Consciousness integrates both self-awareness and environmental awareness, shaping how we perceive reality.

While ants, unlike bees, have been shown to pass the self-awareness mirror test, bees exhibit remarkable environmental awareness. They navigate complex landscapes, evaluate flower options, and make swift decisions in a constantly changing environment. Although it hasn't been definitively shown that bees possess self-awareness, their keen awareness of their surroundings is undeniable.

Most definitions of consciousness describe some ethereal, unearthly quality, but your definition here is commendable because it encompasses attributes that are both testable and observable--self-awareness & environmental-awareness.

Those attributes are certainly applicable to humans and I believe we can test and observe for their equivalency in many but not all subjects/objects of our observations.  If we want to refine our tests and observations to include nearly all, shouldn't we refine our definition of consciousness to its testable and observable essence?

The essence of consciousness isn't anything ethereal or unearthly and it's right there in your description. Strip away "self" and "environment" from your description and you will have "awareness", which is the essence of consciousness. Awareness is the essence of consciousness because we can test for its iterations in all species, but with one caveat--our test subjects must have the facility to engage observable behaviors.  Without testable or observable behaviors there's no basis for our conclusions about a species' equivalency.

[Luc Turpin]

Consciousness integrates both self-awareness and environmental awareness, shaping how we perceive reality.

Mirror test in ants – M.A.B. de Waal and J.E.D.B. Lopez (2017). “Do ants have self-awareness? A review of mirror test studies”. Animal Cognition - Ants having blue markings were observed scratching the marked area, indicating some level of recognition of their reflection. In contrast, ants with brown markings did not show this behavior.

Self-Recognition in Social Ants - Caravita, D. M., & Muñoz, J. M. O. (2020). "Chemical self-recognition in ants: An exploration of individual recognition in Formica." Animal Behavior Journal. Ants demonstrate an ability to recognize and respond to the chemical signatures of other ants, indicating a form of individual recognition.

An interesting read: https://blog.animalogic.ca/blog/brainy-bees-and-self-conscious-ants-and-their-role-in-the-rise-of-the-machines

Pollination Behaviors and Environmental Sensitivity - O’Connor, R. S., & Wratten, S. D. (2012). "Pollination behavior in bees: Environmental cues and decision-making." Ecological Entomology. This study examined how bees responded to a variety of environmental signals such as floral scent, color, and shape to make decisions about which flowers to pollinate.

Bees Environmental sensitivity to Climate Change - Zanette, L., & Goulson, D. (2017). "Climate change and the behavior of pollinators." Nature Climate Change. Researchers examined how bees adapted their behavior to changing weather patterns and fluctuations in floral resources.

Bees’ Sensory Responses to Environmental Cues - Giurfa, M., Sandoz, J. C., & Hannan, M. (2001). "Bee cognition and the role of sensory inputs in associative learning." Current Opinion in Neurobiology. Bees were conditioned to associate a specific odor with a food reward. The study revealed that bees are capable of learning and adapting to changes in their environment based on sensory inputs.

[swansont]

35 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

Consciousness integrates both self-awareness and environmental awareness, shaping how we perceive reality.

!

Moderator Note

The definition being used in this thread (as posted by the thread originator)

“my new definition of consciousness: a being that can act according to the rules it sets and can behave in accordance to the awareness it devolves for itself.”

 

[Luc Turpin]

6 minutes ago, swansont said:

!

Moderator Note

The definition being used in this thread (as posted by the thread originator)

“my new definition of consciousness: a being that can act according to the rules it sets and can behave in accordance to the awareness it devolves for itself.”

 

I believed we were still in the process of refining the definition or redefining consciousness.

[swansont]

Just now, Luc Turpin said:

I believed we were still in the process of refining the definition or redefining consciousness.

!

Moderator Note

There is no “we” here

One person started this thread, and they provided a definition. Don’t hijack that discussion.

 

[DrmDoc]

5 hours ago, swansont said:

!

Moderator Note

There is no “we” here

One person started this thread, and they provided a definition. Don’t hijack that discussion.

 

Agreed, my apologies.