The arrest of Pavel Durov and the French Constitution

[TheVat]

39 minutes ago, Sensei said:

..and do you believe (buy) such lies.. ?

Show me public posts, threads, groups, etc. about child pornography on Telegram. Provide the URL to such content on Telegram.

The mailman's job is not to check every package before it is delivered to make sure it does not contain illegal materials..

If two child rapists make two accounts on SFN, and later send PM ("private messages") between each other, should Dave, Swansont, Phi For All be arrested.. ?

You seem to say 'yes' to such approach..

 

First, it may not be the mailman's job, but the postmaster general who runs the US postal service does have to be responsible and assist law enforcement in stopping the mailing of illegal materials.  This is a normal part of law enforcement in most places - indeed, protecting people from criminal harm is a primary goal of society.  So your analogy doesn't really work there, but it helped me get my point across.

Secondly, I am not posting "lies."  These events are public record. News outlets are governed by libel and slander laws.  If they reported wrongly, they could be sued for millions.  I'm sorry their reports don't fit your worldview in which Durov is some kind of free speech saint.  

Third, I cannot cite and post child exploitation/porn messages which have been intercepted by law enforcement - do you understand why evidence to be shown at a court trial is not shared with the public before trial?  If you can't understand that, I really can't help you.

Your SFN child rapist analogy does not really seem analogous to what Durov was allowing or his uncooperative stance with law enforcement.  The owner of this site is a physician and I am confident he would cooperate with the authorities, if SFN were to become a major messaging center for drug cartels, child porn, and organized RW violence against immigrants.  

Your prior posts here usually seem intelligent and helpful, but I suspect that your understanding of the law is somewhat less than of information technology.

[swansont]

17 hours ago, Sensei said:

Nonsense. If the authority steps in and says to IT company “give me all your data between X and Y” or give me all the data of “X” (the client).. It's all a matter of IT

It’s IT if how they do it is under discussion. But it’s not. 

[Sensei]

Unbelievable things happened here..

I did not expect that someone here is a supporter of surveillance and hacking into computers and cell phones of all people in the world..

18 hours ago, TheVat said:

First, it may not be the mailman's job, but the postmaster general who runs the US postal service does have to be responsible and assist law enforcement in stopping the mailing of illegal materials.  This is a normal part of law enforcement in most places - indeed, protecting people from criminal harm is a primary goal of society.  So your analogy doesn't really work there, but it helped me get my point across.

The job of the U.S. postmaster is to open all the mail and all the letters, and make copies of what's in those letters, and close those mailings to pretend they haven't been opened?

18 hours ago, TheVat said:

So your analogy doesn't really work there, but it helped me get my point across.

..methinks you have understood nothing..

 

18 hours ago, TheVat said:

Third, I cannot cite and post child exploitation/porn messages which have been intercepted by law enforcement - do you understand why evidence to be shown at a court trial is not shared with the public before trial?  If you can't understand that, I really can't help you.

So you can not prove the truth of your words that Telegram (or any other social media portal) was used for such activities..

All your references to the media and these media to other sources, and these sources to other sources, simply do not have any solid and confirmable basis in the real world.

18 hours ago, TheVat said:

Your SFN child rapist analogy does not really seem analogous to what Durov was allowing or his uncooperative stance with law enforcement.  The owner of this site is a physician and I am confident he would cooperate with the authorities, if SFN were to become a major messaging center for drug cartels, child porn, and organized RW violence against immigrants.  

There are now about 195 countries in the world. With which of them the IT company should cooperate? What would be the criteria for accepting certain law enforcement agencies from certain countries and rejecting them?

An email comes to you (IT company owner) from, say, Guatemala, and says that some guy named Tom, and surname Swanton, is suspected by them, because he did something, *** knows what, sent a picture of a naked child, for example, or something like that.. What is IT company support team supposed to do with such an email?

Replace Guatemala, with Paraguai, North Korea, France, Sweden, Israel, Norway, UAE/Abu Dhabi, or whatever...

As a social media operator, how are you supposed to verify if this is a real email from the government of this country from a request from some jerk who is impersonating it?

 

It doesn't matter if it's an e-mail or if it's real mail.

 

Anyone who has a child is guilty of registering pedophile videos....

 

Everyone who has a child takes pictures of their child.

 

 

There was a situation here where someone took a picture of a child, took his own face, put it together and was convicted of possession of child pornography. Only it was he himself who was in the photograph....
The best part is that this person was in prison. In prison he had a computer that was given to him by the prison guards, and they gave him his photos, and they gave him photos of some children (they were not naked at all). He edited them himself (according to the prosecution) in Windows Paint, so he cut out himself sitting naked and pasted on the child's head or something like that. And on that basis they convicted him of possession of child pornography.

Except he was naked on these photos..

 

Edited Saturday at 10:46 AM by Sensei

[StringJunky]

On 2/27/2025 at 6:51 PM, TheVat said:

No.  Not sure if your translator is working properly.  I said only that, in cases of child exploitation or serious crime, it is lawful to seek a warrant from a court to examine their communication.  As others noted, public safety can override some laws, and there are ethical grounds that need to be established before a judge.

There is no call for this kind of trolling.  You clearly did not understand my statement.  And I wasn't singling out child porn as the only type of criminal activity where such surveillance warrants can be applied for.  

As nice as that would in principle, you can't have selective encryption; it's all or nothing. That's why Apple is pulling out its opt-in advanced encryption option from the UK market. The UK government wants on-demand access by having a backdoor put in. It claims the public is protected by UK statute and needs a judges warrant to access. This is bollocks because if they want to access any device surreptitiously without a warrant, they just ask one of their, 3, 5, 9-Eyes security partners, who aren't bound by UK regulations, to do the dirty work for them. It's a sad state of affairs, but here we are.

Edited Saturday at 10:12 AM by StringJunky

[exchemist]

22 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Unbelievable things happened here..

I did not expect that someone here is a supporter of surveillance and hacking into computers and cell phones of all people in the world..

The job of the U.S. postmaster is to open all the mail and all the letters, and make copies of what's in those letters, and close those mailings to pretend they haven't been opened?

..methinks you have understood nothing..

 

So you can not prove the truth of your words that Telegram (or any other social media portal) was used for such activities..

All your references to the media and these media to other sources, and these sources to other sources, simply do not have any solid and confirmable basis in the real world.

There are now about 195 countries in the world. With which of them the IT company should cooperate? What would be the criteria for accepting certain law enforcement agencies from certain countries and rejecting them?

You are choosing, bizarrely,  to believe that the French authorities and all the major media organisations that have reported this nefarious activity are lying or misinformed. Obviously nobody on this forum is going to prove the truth of the allegations to your satisfaction by finding and posting examples of child pornography. If you can't see why that is, you are crazy.

It is obvious there is at least a case to answer and it will now go to trial. The trial judge will see the evidence. So we'll see if the allegations are true.  

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 10:16 AM by exchemist

[StringJunky]

On 2/28/2025 at 12:00 AM, Sensei said:

In the old days, when people regularly used e-mail rather than webmails it was the e-mail program that downloaded data from the POP3/IMAP server and deleted it later (POP3 DELE [mail-index] command https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1939.html ). The data disappeared from the server! And now you have the government stepping in and telling the IT company hosting the mailboxes and forcing them pretend to delete the emails while internally storing them (just in case gov step in and want them in any time in the future)..A user can't access his/her messages after deleting them, but the government has access to them. Crazy. I can see that you like such pathologies when they are done by those you consider “good” and if it was done by Trump and his team you would immediately be outraged..

This is correct in the UK. Companies are bound to hold a user's data for two years or more after deletion.

Edited Saturday at 10:25 AM by StringJunky

[Sensei]

4 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

This is correct in the UK. Companies are bound to hold a user's data for two years or more after deletion.

I can have the web server on my phone and clear it anytime if I want. I described how to configure it in this post:

 

 

[StringJunky]

18 hours ago, TheVat said:

First, it may not be the mailman's job, but the postmaster general who runs the US postal service does have to be responsible and assist law enforcement in stopping the mailing of illegal materials.  This is a normal part of law enforcement in most places - indeed, protecting people from criminal harm is a primary goal of society.  So your analogy doesn't really work there, but it helped me get my point across.

Secondly, I am not posting "lies."  These events are public record. News outlets are governed by libel and slander laws.  If they reported wrongly, they could be sued for millions.  I'm sorry their reports don't fit your worldview in which Durov is some kind of free speech saint.  

Third, I cannot cite and post child exploitation/porn messages which have been intercepted by law enforcement - do you understand why evidence to be shown at a court trial is not shared with the public before trial?  If you can't understand that, I really can't help you.

Your SFN child rapist analogy does not really seem analogous to what Durov was allowing or his uncooperative stance with law enforcement.  The owner of this site is a physician and I am confident he would cooperate with the authorities, if SFN were to become a major messaging center for drug cartels, child porn, and organized RW violence against immigrants.  

Your prior posts here usually seem intelligent and helpful, but I suspect that your understanding of the law is somewhat less than of information technology.

The main point I take from Sensei's posts is that internet security is an absolutely binary-choice scenario. No one can see, or everyone can see. Apple knows this and they will have some of the most knowledgeable geeks on the planet on their payroll. The law can either allow total privacy or none at all. It's that simple under current security protocols.

[Sensei]

2 hours ago, exchemist said:

You are choosing, bizarrely,  to believe that the French authorities and all the major media organisations that have reported this nefarious activity are lying or misinformed.

I am in such a position, I don't have to believe..

2 hours ago, exchemist said:

Obviously nobody on this forum is going to prove the truth of the allegations to your satisfaction by finding and posting examples of child pornography. If you can't see why that is, you are crazy.

..you (not personally, plural) keep saying that people making extraordinary arguments have to back up them by extraordinary evidence.. and when it happens to you, you run away like a wounded lion..

..because these are just lies..

I for one am convinced that the sole purpose is to intimidate the owners of other social media that the same thing could happen to them..

Durov can only admit that he did not want to give access to the governments of European countries and USA to spy on all people who use Telegram (as Facebook, Twitter and others do).

The aim is to make backdoors to all IT systems so that email passwords do not have to be hacked, but simply IT companies themselves give/make access to their data voluntarily ("under pressure from “the authorities”).

(If the government has a backdoor, everyone has a backdoor)

 

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement

In ACTA, the whole anti-piracy thing is just a bunch of bullshit designed to obscure what the law was all about (as with the Patriot Act)..

IOW, remote access to all phones and all computers from anywhere at any time at will (just like me)..

 

 

How to create a universal backdoor to all IT systems so that no one will notice? (except God ) ?

Force all IT companies to make their users provide their telephone numbers during the registration, verification process, etc.

The user logs in normally via e-mail/nickname and password (it does not matter how long or complex it is).

 

When government agents want to log in, they approach the client at night, jam his/her cell phone, and the SIM doesn't work.. And in the meantime, his/her duplicate SIM works elsewhere.. and they log in via phone with a one-time password sent via SMS to that cell phone...they get a code and have full access to everything that required F2A..

The purpose of this F2A was to simply have a backdoor to all your data.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-factor_authentication

 

A transmission from a duplicate SIM card is indistinguishable from a transmission from a real SIM card. The SMS code has been sent. Signed into the network and access granted.

You don't have to ask for permission every time you want to read the victim's data. You don't have to ask the judge etc. etc.

If you can get the data, you (they) can send it too.. And by downloading/uploading anything, you can look like a criminal.. No one can prove it's not you. A duplicate SIM card is indistinguishable from the real one.

Edited Saturday at 12:14 PM by Sensei

[Linkey]

On 2/28/2025 at 5:50 PM, TheVat said:

Nope.  Covered in major news outlets all over the world.

Possibly this is an example of the ”fake-news” as Trump call them; they can be also called “informational anomalies”. Somebody posts a lie, and many people repost this lie; then this lie is exposed, but the exposing information spreads much more slowly in the internet, and the lie still works in the minds of people.

An example of such “fake-news” is the story of imprisoning and recent pardoning of Ross Ulbricht, the owner of Silk Road. Previously somebody wrote that he paid for 5 murder attempts; this information spread widely, but the court rejected it in 2018 or earlier:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht

https://reason.com/2018/07/25/ross-ulbrichts-murder-for-hire-charges-d/

 

However Ulbricht was still in prison until 2025 when Trump pardoned him.

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Linkey said:

Possibly this is an example of the ”fake-news” as Trump call them

Possibly?

Either you have evidence to rebut a claim, or you don’t. 

And Trump’s idea of fake news is facts he doesn’t like, so that’s really not something to point to.

[TheVat]

8 hours ago, StringJunky said:

The main point I take from Sensei's posts is that internet security is an absolutely binary-choice scenario. No one can see, or everyone can see. Apple knows this and they will have some of the most knowledgeable geeks on the planet on their payroll. The law can either allow total privacy or none at all. It's that simple under current security protocols.

Not sure I believe it's quite that binary.  If that were the case, then obviously I would not so readily support warrant-based interception of criminal messaging.  I really need more information on this issue. (for one thing, aren't court orders more user-specific?)

Edited Saturday at 07:17 PM by TheVat

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Not sure I believe it's quite that binary.  If that were the case, then obviously I would not so readily support warrant-based interception of criminal messaging.  I really need more information on this issue. (for one thing, aren't court orders more user-specific?)

Yes. They order specific accounts to be investigated, but when the UK government spokesman, might have been Starmer, was questioned about bulk accessing data, he said words to the effect that they don't discuss operational matters in public. I think, the responsibility now lies with the user to securely encrypt before uploading to the cloud. The order given to Apple was secret and they are barred from talking about it at all. It was leaked.

Edited Saturday at 08:50 PM by StringJunky

[DimaMazin]

On 2/28/2025 at 4:38 AM, Linkey said:

I am not sure that this is true. Did you read these news from social networks?

Durov is a very good person, and he has a reputation of a Russian "internet-warrior", because he tried to protect anti-Putin bloggers in Vkontakte and had to leave Russia because of this. In 2019, the Telegram was blocked in Russia, but Durov was able to make Telegram "self-VPN" and the Russian authorities were unsuccessfull.

 

Russian troops use Telegram for transmit information.

[Linkey]

11 hours ago, DimaMazin said:

Russian troops use Telegram for transmit information.

They can use Russian messenger Vkontakte as well. But the Telegram is a still remaining possibility for the Russians to read independent information published by anti-Putin bloggers.

[DimaMazin]

9 hours ago, Linkey said:

They can use Russian messenger Vkontakte as well. But the Telegram is a still remaining possibility for the Russians to read independent information published by anti-Putin bloggers.

Russian military don't want to be under hood of KGB. Do you think after the arrest the Russian bloggers cannot publish independent information?