Question to forum liberals

[Linkey]

Some time ago I wrote here, that Trump and Biden are two sides of the same coin, that the middle class is disappearing in the Western society, and that the inflation is a hidden taxation (for the poor, but not for the wealthy). Do you still deny these statements?

[Eise]

1 hour ago, Linkey said:

Trump and Biden are two sides of the same coin

Nope.

1 hour ago, Linkey said:

the middle class is disappearing

Since the fall of the Iron Curtain, and Thatcher and Reagan started economic deregulations, which opened the door for greedy capitalism.

1 hour ago, Linkey said:

inflation is a hidden taxation

Might have some merit, yes. But my knowledge about economics is not deep enough to start a discussion about it.

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, Linkey said:

Some time ago I wrote here, that Trump and Biden are two sides of the same coin, that the middle class is disappearing in the Western society, and that the inflation is a hidden taxation (for the poor, but not for the wealthy). Do you still deny these statements?

This seems to  be question-begging. Where have these (at least partly false) statements been “denied”?

But what do you mean by “middle class”? Do you mean what we used to call lower class or working class? In other words people that do predominantly manual or “blue collar” , or otherwise poorly paid jobs? Or do you mean what in the UK we mean by middle class, which is the class above the aforementioned, predominantly professional, managerial, university educated? 
 

Whichever it is, what makes you think it is disappearing? I don’t see any evidence that either group is.

I don’t know what you mean by “liberal” in this context either, so you should not take my reply to the OP to be agreement to being classed as one, whatever it may be.

Edited Thursday at 07:28 AM by exchemist

[Linkey]

47 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Whichever it is, what makes you think it is disappearing? I don’t see any evidence that either group is.

I see much information in the Web (posts of bloggers, etc.), that in the USA and in the Western world it becomes more and more difficult for a common person to buy a house.

I one film I saw the information, that 40 years ago, in USA, only one member of a family (husband or wife) was working; no both members need to work, and still it is difficult for the to use mortgage.

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, Linkey said:

I see much information in the Web (posts of bloggers, etc.), that in the USA and in the Western world it becomes more and more difficult for a common person to buy a house.

I one film I saw the information, that 40 years ago, in USA, only one member of a family (husband or wife) was working; no both members need to work, and still it is difficult for the to use mortgage.

How is that evidence that the "middle class", whatever definition of it you have in mind, is "disappearing"? 

And what has any of this to do with supposed "liberals"?

[Linkey]

2 hours ago, exchemist said:

How is that evidence that the "middle class", whatever definition of it you have in mind, is "disappearing"? 

Sorry, I don't understand why you are asking such stupid questions.

The prices of smartphones are decreasing because of the growth of technologies, but this does not mean that the people are becoming richer. Since the technologies are unable to produce space, the prices of earth and houses still indicate the real incomes of people.

[dimreepr]

28 minutes ago, Linkey said:

Sorry, I don't understand why you are asking such stupid questions.

The prices of smartphones are decreasing because of the growth of technologies, but this does not mean that the people are becoming richer. Since the technologies are unable to produce space, the prices of earth and houses still indicate the real incomes of people.

The perception of wealth depends on many thing's, not least of which is our relative comfort; we're willing to accept hardships, so long as that guy does too...

[geordief]

To repeat  an earlier question ,what does the OP understand as "middle class"?

Obvious not the billionaire class and obviously  not  those who cannot afford to put away any savings

So  a subset of those in between?

 

What subset (subsets)?

Edit: Who are the liberals?(if we are allowed to ask  stupid questions)

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 01:16 PM by geordief

[dimreepr]

18 minutes ago, geordief said:

To repeat  an earlier question ,what does the OP understand as "middle class"?

Obvious not the billionaire class and obviously  not  those who cannot afford to put away any savings

So  a subset of those in between?

 

What subset (subsets)?

Edit: Who are the liberals?(if we are allowed to ask  stupid questions)

 

 

 

The liberal's are the people that accept they're human and have little understanding of those who ask, bloody stupid question's;"We'd rather be right, than effective"...

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, Linkey said:

Sorry, I don't understand why you are asking such stupid questions.

The prices of smartphones are decreasing because of the growth of technologies, but this does not mean that the people are becoming richer. Since the technologies are unable to produce space, the prices of earth and houses still indicate the real incomes of people.

Because of your stupid answers. How do either house or phone prices cause the disappearance (your term) of an entire class in society?

[Phi for All]

10 hours ago, Linkey said:

Some time ago I wrote here, that Trump and Biden are two sides of the same coin, that the middle class is disappearing in the Western society, and that the inflation is a hidden taxation (for the poor, but not for the wealthy). Do you still deny these statements?

Definitely deny the first. Biden and TFG are not remotely similar, much less two sides of one coin. That much is obvious.

The middle class isn't "disappearing". It's shrinking due to pressures on small businesses from large corporations using lobbyists to unfairly frame the market. 

Also, I think "liberal" is an outdated and inaccurate label. At least in the US, progressive is the better description of those who oppose the conservatives. Both major parties have claimed many stances but conservatives, whether Democrat or Republican, have never accomplished anything significant in this country. Becoming an independent colony, abolishing slavery, the interstate highway system, Social Security, the Moon landings, the National Parks system, the Postal Service, even the mix of ethnicities that made us the great "melting pot", all of these things are due to progressive views and behavior. Conservatives are stuck in the mud wishing things won't change, which is why the corporations love them.

[TheVat]

6 hours ago, Linkey said:

see much information in the Web (posts of bloggers, etc.), that in the USA and in the Western world it becomes more and more difficult for a common person to buy a house.

The housing shortage here is an effect of rising costs of land,  building materials, labor shortages, and poor zoning laws.  And developers incentivized to focus on building high-end luxury homes.  We have a shortage of homes due to particular causes like these, not because the middle class is vanishing.  What you are hearing is that it is harder for the middle class to own a free-standing house, and so more middle class people are renting apartments or buying condominiums or mobile homes.  This shift away from free-standing houses has been happening in Europe for a much longer time, because land there has been more expensive for much longer (population density is an important factor).  The shortage here accelerated during the pandemic, which meant high demand for apartments and soaring rents - again, a severe market problem and not a vanishing middle class.  As cities are starting to change zoning and incentivizing affordable housing development, the problem will gradually diminish.  We expect little help from the federal government, since it's now being dismantled by an angry toddler.

[Linkey]

36 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Definitely deny the first. Biden and TFG are not remotely similar, much less two sides of one coin. That much is obvious.

Recently half of the America hated Biden, now another half hates Trump. And they are indeed the two sides of the same coin: both they were accepted by ruling class (financial aristocracy) to become candidates, because both aren't a threat to the money and power of the middle class. Trump now tries to create an illusion that he is a "revolutionary", but he is rather a spoiler because all good he tries to do is immediately discredited by his terrible features.

[Phi for All]

5 minutes ago, Linkey said:

Recently half of the America hated Biden, now another half hates Trump. And they are indeed the two sides of the same coin: both they were accepted by ruling class (financial aristocracy) to become candidates, because both aren't a threat to the money and power of the middle class. Trump now tries to create an illusion that he is a "revolutionary", but he is rather a spoiler because all good he tries to do is immediately discredited by his terrible features.

I find your definitions ridiculous. By this token, Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter were two sides of the same coin. Your distinctions are worthless in a political discussion.

[geordief]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

The liberal's are the people that accept they're human and have little understanding of those who ask, bloody stupid question's;"We'd rather be right, than effective"...

I think we need the OP to give us their own definition.(I usually ignore an OP if they don't  field questions on their topic)

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Linkey said:

all good he tries to do

Please name one "good" thing he's trying to do. Something he's really trying to do, not just giving lip service to.

Trying to reduce corruption in government spending isn't his real goal. He's looking top down when the real corruption is right at the top.

He says he's trying to reduce crime when it's at an all time low, just like his last administration. He's trying to drain the swamp when he's the biggest alligator there. 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Linkey said:

Recently half of the America hated Biden, now another half hates Trump. And they are indeed the two sides of the same coin: both they were accepted by ruling class (financial aristocracy) to become candidates, because both aren't a threat to the money and power of the middle class. Trump now tries to create an illusion that he is a "revolutionary", but he is rather a spoiler because all good he tries to do is immediately discredited by his terrible features.

They’re both men. See? Exactly the same.

Can you put some effort into your “analysis”? This is pathetic. And arguably in bad faith (i.e. trolling)

In any event, “Trump and Biden are two sides of the same coin, that the middle class is disappearing in the Western society, and that the inflation is a hidden taxation (for the poor, but not for the wealthy” are three separate topics, only loosely related to each other.

Biden expanded the staffing and budget of the IRS, to go after wealth tax cheats. Trump is firing a bunch of them, to enable cheating. Biden tried to expand the reach of the CFPB, protecting consumers against predation by the wealthy, while Trump is gutting it.

Very different actions, and one is a threat to money and power. 

 

[Linkey]

12 hours ago, swansont said:

Can you put some effort into your “analysis”? This is pathetic. And arguably in bad faith (i.e. trolling)

In the Western world, the global elites are controlling the educational system, that’s why educated people usually vote for Dems. The Dems impose unpleasant things like transgenders in big sport, and Trump is finishing this. This is a single example, not the most important.

The main reason why Trump won was the dollar inflation. The inflation is caused by the quantitative easing (dollar printing in fact). An important aspect of the program of Trump was the support of cryptocurrencies, and many people understand (or at least feel unconsciously), that the bitcoins provide a possibility to avoid “paying the inflation tax to the US government”. Supporting the cryptoeconomics is a really good thing Trump does now, as well as e.g. pardoning Ross Ulbricht.

[CharonY]

This silly. Rich elites are more often than not conservative (mostly in the fiscal sense, they like low taxes). Have you nit seen the many billionaires with Trump?  Higher ed is associated with left leanings because it promotes critical thinking and associated questioning of the world and frequently own values. Clever kids realize that the world is complex and frequently beliefs they had crash against facts. That is why an authoritarian system wants an uneducated populace.

I present the above post as evidence, especially the second paragraph.

[Peterkin]

23 hours ago, Linkey said:

Some time ago I wrote here, that Trump and Biden are two sides of the same coin, that the middle class is disappearing in the Western society, and that the inflation is a hidden taxation (for the poor, but not for the wealthy). Do you still deny these statements?

Yes. All of them. You have no clue.

[swansont]

6 hours ago, Linkey said:

In the Western world, the global elites are controlling the educational system, that’s why educated people usually vote for Dems. The Dems impose unpleasant things like transgenders in big sport, and Trump is finishing this. This is a single example, not the most important.

So, the answer would be a “no, I won’t” (to “Can you put some effort into your “analysis”?”)

“global elites are controlling the educational system” is just cheap, lazy, conspiracy theory 

6 hours ago, Linkey said:

The main reason why Trump won was the dollar inflation. The inflation is caused by the quantitative easing (dollar printing in fact).

Again, no analysis, no data. Just assertion.

Inflation can be measured and compared with other countries that did not do quantitative easing. Why is it that they had even worse inflation?

Quote

An important aspect of the program of Trump was the support of cryptocurrencies, and many people understand (or at least feel unconsciously), that the bitcoins provide a possibility to avoid “paying the inflation tax to the US government”. Supporting the cryptoeconomics is a really good thing Trump does now, as well as e.g. pardoning Ross Ulbricht.

So-called cryptocurrencies are a scam, so it’s no wonder Trump supports them (he launched his own to cash in) and pardoned am associated scam artist, but surprising given his stance on drug dealers.

[dimreepr]

9 hours ago, Linkey said:

In the Western world, the global elites are controlling the educational system, that’s why educated people usually vote for Dems. The Dems impose unpleasant things like transgenders in big sport, and Trump is finishing this. This is a single example, not the most important.

It's not even significant, education... Some things are better left unsaid, for example "being down and out in London and Paris" 

[CharonY]

4 hours ago, swansont said:

Inflation can be measured and compared with other countries that did not do quantitative easing. Why is it that they had even worse inflation?

It is incredible to me that folks apparently collective forgot a minor event that happened between 2020-2023.

4 hours ago, swansont said:

So-called cryptocurrencies are a scam, so it’s no wonder Trump supports them (he launched his own to cash in) and pardoned am associated scam artist, but surprising given his stance on drug dealers.

Yeah, and while IIRC he was not charged for it he did try to hire folks to murder people and evidence for that was presented. Or as some would say he is "very fine people".

[iNow]

11 hours ago, swansont said:

it’s no wonder Trump supports them (he launched his own to cash in)

It seems he was also sending a signal to others that this form of grift is fully acceptable and that others should follow his lead. 

Over 700 more launched within a week or two of him doing this, nearly all trying to scam and bilk people:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/07/trump-meme-coin-crypto-copycats

[swansont]

51 minutes ago, iNow said:

It seems he was also sending a signal to others that this form of grift is fully acceptable and that others should follow his lead. 

Over 700 more launched within a week or two of him doing this, nearly all trying to scam and bilk people:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/07/trump-meme-coin-crypto-copycats

And now we have the crypto reserve, so the government can contribute to the ponzi scheme while others cash out.