Sodium Tiiodide, Nitrogen Triiodide?

[RyanJ]

Hi there all you fellow chemistry fans!

 

I was recelty reading a chemistry book in school, it was quite new too.

 

I saw a vague reference to 2 chemicals I have never heared of before:

 

Sodium Triiodide ([math]NaI_3[/math]) and Nitrogen Triiodide ([math]NI_3[/math])

 

Does anyone know what these do and how I would make them?

 

Please note: If they are very dangerous then please say so as I don't want to endanger myself or someone else.

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan Jones

[YT2095]

NI3 is dangerous (lethal) and sodium triiodide doesn`t exist. thread closed.

[RyanJ]

NI3 is dangerous (lethal) thread closed.

 

 

It is Its a good thing they did not tell you about it in the book then.

 

Thanks for telling me

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan Jones

[jdurg]

NI3 is dangerous (lethal) and sodium triiodide doesn`t exist. thread closed.

 

 

I beg to differ YT. Sodium triiodide DOES exist, yet at the same time it doesn't. Elemental iodine mixed in with an iodide salt forms the red-brown triiodide ion. So if you have some water, some NaI, and some I2 and mix them all together you'll get a solution of sodium triiodide. I'm not sure if it will remain together if you evaporate the water, but in solution you definitely have a conglomeration of [Na]+ and [i3]-.

 

As for nitrogen triiodide, you are quite correct. It is a contact explosive that is taken far too lightly by far too many people.

[RyanJ]

As for nitrogen triiodide' date=' you are quite correct. It is a contact explosive that is taken far too lightly by far too many people.[/quote']

 

I'm all up for mild explosives but what you and YT2095 said (And YT2095's reaction too) I'll leave it well alone

 

 

Cheers and thanks for the informaiton all the same,

 

Ryan Jones.

[woelen]

I beg to differ YT. Sodium triiodide DOES exist, yet at the same time it doesn't. Elemental iodine mixed in with an iodide salt forms the red-brown triiodide ion. So if you have some water, some NaI, and some I2 and mix them all together you'll get a solution of sodium triiodide. I'm not sure if it will remain together if you evaporate the water, but in solution you definitely have a conglomeration of [Na]+ and [i3']-.

The triiodide ion is stable in water (I mentioned it already in another thread on SO2 and I2). It is a large ion and because of this, it only is stable in the solid state, when the counter-cation is large as well. LiI3 and NaI3 indeed do not exist in the solid state. When a solution of a 1 : 1 molar ratio of NaI and I2 is evaporated to dryness (carefully at low temp under reduced pressure), then still NaI and I2 separate. Solid KI3 can be obtained with difficulty, but CsI3 and also quaternary ammonium salts of I3(-) can be obtained in the solid state quite well. For RbI3 I don't know (I have no personal experience with that ), but I expect it to be between KI3 and CsI3.

 

As for nitrogen triiodide, you are quite correct. It is a contact explosive that is taken far too lightly by far too many people.

Indeed, NI3 is useless crap, no fun at all and smart people do not attempt to loose their limbs by making this crap.

[RyanJ]

I have a question - what makes Nitrogen Triiodide so untable? I'm pretty shure its to do with its structure but thats about it.

 

Are the other Triiodide compounds also like this?

 

Thanks for the information,

 

Ryan Jones

[woelen]

NI3 is a covalent compound in which the electronic structure is not very favorable. The electronic structure is such, that a slight agitation causes the structure to break down.

 

The ionic compounds KI3, CsI3 and so on, are not really stable (in fact, they are quite reactive), but they are much more stable than NI3. These compounds have a completely different structure.

 

In fact, NI3 is not a simple molecule, it has never been isolated as such. The stuff made by kewls and the like is not NI3, but NI3.nNH3. This compound does not consist of simple molecules NI3, coordinated to NH3 molecules, but it is one large 'macromolecule' of incredibly complex structure. The precise structure of this compound still is not known. One reason for this is that serious researchers don't like to fiddle with this crap, due to its explosive nature. Who would like to run the risk of destroying a multi-tonne crystal analysis X-ray device with a crap sample of NI3.nNH3 ? There are better compounds to use that expensive equipment for.

 

Yet another interesting example of totally different properties are the azides. The ion N3(-) is quite stable, while the covalently bonded -N3 (e.g. HN3, Pb(N3)2, CuN3, AgN3) is impact sensitive and very explosive. So, compounds having very similar formulae may be totally different, due to important differences in electronic structures. NaN3 is stable, AgN3 is a high-explosive.

[jdurg]

Actually woelen, NI3 itself has been isolated but in microscale quantities. The procedure needed to make chemically pure NI3 isn't something that a home chemist, or really a sane chemist, would do so there's no need for me to reproduce it here. If you really are curious, an exhaustive search through google will bring up what you're looking for.

 

Pure NI3 is a red-brown powder which is insanely sensitive. If you take a look at the size of the nitrogen atom, you'll notice that it's very small. Meanwhile, the Iodine atom is pretty large. NI3 is structurally analagous to NH3 with three nitrogen-other bonds and a lone pair of electrons on the nitrogen. When you have three iodine atoms and a lone pair fighting for space on the teency-weency nitrogen atom, it puts a great deal of strain and instability on the N-I bonds. It's remarkable that the compound even forms at all! (As NBr3 won't even remain together for any sufficient time to be studies, and NCl3 is notoriously dangerous, but does exist. NF3 is pretty much an inert gas as the Fluorine atom is incredibly small).

 

So the main reason for the instability of nitrogen triiodide has to do with the weak N-I bonds and the 'fighting' that goes on for space around the Nitrogen molecule. The presence of ammonia and water is able to stabilize the compound by forming complexes which relieve some strain from the N-I bonds. When the ammonia and water leave, however, then the incredibly impure NI3 remains and once one of those goes off it sets up a chain reaction which decomposes everything else too. It's really quite remarkable.

[budullewraagh]

just to follow up on the "space" thing jdurg was talking about. the bonding P orbital in each I atom is gigantic, while the bonding orbital in N is tiny. thus, orbital overlap is pretty poor

[xeluc]

I have a question about Nitrogen Triiodide as well. I saw a video of someone detonating some. It was on a ring stand. They used a FEATHER to detonate it. So my question is, How could that NI3 even be PLACED on the ring stand. Very carefullly doesn't cut it for some reason, seeing as the touch of a feather will set it off

[Bio-Hazard]

Is NI3 really that dangerous? I mean seriously, i get opinions from some that it'll blow off your fingers.. and from others it really won't blow off your fingers... what's the big deal here? Amount? How it's made?

 

I know it's an explosive compound but I've never made it. I have the supplies to make it when I get some free time, rather do AP though..

 

Yes, it's that feather video I saw xeluc..

I've seen it blow some stuff up but I don't know if it would do break through skin and muscle tissue like it does to a piece of paper.

If it does break through skin, the worst it can do is poison you I figure.

[woelen]

All depends on quantities. If you make 20 mg of the stuff and that would explode in your hand, then you would feel quite a bang, but no lost fingers. If a whole gram explodes in your hand, then your entire hand may be torn apart.

 

But, it IS very sensitive and powerful. Btw, I also strongly advice against making AP. This also is nasty stuff and you would not be the first person who becomes seriously injured by that crap. Last summer a Dutch boy had blown of a few fingers and he'll have to do the rest of his life with less than 10 digits. Even unscrewing the cap of a container, in which AP is stored can make the whole bunch detonate. To my opinion, people fiddling around with AP or NI3 potentially ruin their own lifes, but they certainly ruin the possibilities for other home chemists, due to liability issues with suppliers.

 

What is this that all these people want to fiddle around with crap like NI3 or AP? This is not fun at all and certainly not worth the risks.

[RyanJ]

But' date=' it IS very sensitive and powerful. Btw, I also [i']strongly[/i] advice against making AP. This also is nasty stuff and you would not be the first person who becomes seriously injured by that crap. Last summer a Dutch boy had blown of a few fingers and he'll have to do the rest of his life with less than 10 digits. Even unscrewing the cap of a container, in which AP is stored can make the whole bunch detonate. To my opinion, people fiddling around with AP or NI3 potentially ruin their own lifes, but they certainly ruin the possibilities for other home chemists, due to liability issues with suppliers.

 

I 've actually managed to see this one now. My Bio-chemical teacher said he has always been very interested in [math]NI_3[/math] so he made us a small demo - it was loud and it blew the beaker it was in to shreds.... And that was from a feather dropped on it. Not safe, not safe at all!

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan Jones

[jdurg]

NI3 just doesn't get the respect it deserves. Based upon the physics of its detonation, it is a high explosive just like nitroglycerine and TNT are. In sufficient quantities, it can cause a great deal of damage to people and property. A pile of it no bigger than a chocolate chip cookie can be enough to blow a window out of its frame. I liken the 'kewlness' factor of it to sodium metal. People typically see a small bit set off and suddenly think that if they double or triple the amount they'll see a better explosion. They fail to realize that the power increases exponentially and instead of a 'better explosion', they get a powerful detonation that injures many.

 

As for how the NI3 gets onto the stand, it's synthesized there. In a water/ammonia solution, NI3 is stabilized so it can be moved around and manipulated. The compound is synthesized, placed onto the filter paper on the ring stand and then allowed to dry. Upon drying it is sensitized to the point where a sharp fart can set it off. I think we've discussed as much as we can about NI3 without crossing any lines here at the forums. I'm not sure how much more can be added to this discussion.

[RyanJ]

NI3 just doesn't get the respect it deserves. Based upon the physics of its detonation' date=' it is a high explosive just like nitroglycerine and TNT are. In sufficient quantities, it can cause a great deal of damage to people and property. A pile of it no bigger than a chocolate chip cookie can be enough to blow a window out of its frame. I liken the 'kewlness' factor of it to sodium metal. People typically see a small bit set off and suddenly think that if they double or triple the amount they'll see a better explosion. They fail to realize that the power increases exponentially and instead of a 'better explosion', they get a powerful detonation that injures many.

[/quote']

 

After seeing the power of that small pile I'm not going near the stuff, its not worth messing with something as unstable as that - there are things just as interesting and much safer to studdy

I was just glad to be 2 meters away and behing one of those visor screens....

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan Jones

[YT2095]

it was loud and it blew the beaker it was in to shreds.... And that was from a feather dropped on it. Not safe' date=' not safe at all!

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan Jones[/quote']

 

your teacher was an IDIOT then! common sense dictates that you do NOT detonate ANYTHING inside a Glass vessel!

 

and as for synthing AP (mentioned a few posts ago) you must be some kind of K3WL teeny bomber then, as only they bother to make and use the stuff and BRAG about it!

anymore AP (or related mentionings) from you, expect to be jumped on from a Great Height!

[RyanJ]

your teacher was an IDIOT then! common sense dictates that you do NOT detonate ANYTHING inside a Glass vessel!

 

and as for synthing AP (mentioned a few posts ago) you must be some kind of K3WL teeny bomber then' date=' as only they bother to make and use the stuff and BRAG about it!

anymore AP (or related mentionings) from you, expect to be jumped on from a Great Height![/quote']

 

I'n mot shure if it was glass.... Maybe it was plastic.... :S

 

 

Ryan Jones

[YT2095]

a Tumbler then and not a beaker, but even so, ANY enclosed area for that kind of reaction is just plain dumb!

[RyanJ]

a Tumbler then and not a beaker, but even so, ANY enclosed area for that kind of reaction is just plain dumb!

 

Yea... makes sence... I'll have to point that put next time I see him then

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan Jones

[vrus]

Man ! after reading this thread, I ain't going anywhere close to this stuff! No way. Not for me !

[RyanJ]

Man ! after reading this thread, I ain't going anywhere close to this stuff! No way. Not for me !

 

Then the thread has served its cause - it was originally started to find out about the stuff and now everyone knows its dangerous - avoid it like the plague lest thy blow they finders off!

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan Jones

[akcapr]

eehh its not as bad as many other things you can make. Btw when my dad was in college he and friends would take some ammonium triiodide and let it dry on the floor for when a new memebr of the dorm came and he would step on the stuff and it would "go off" and such.

[RyanJ]

eehh its not as bad as many other things you can make. Btw when my dad was in college he and friends would take some ammonium triiodide and let it dry on the floor for when a new memebr of the dorm came and he would step on the stuff and it would "go off" and such.

 

Thats a bit mean... a great wakeup call though!

 

I read on Google something like this happening though the guy left it in an Aluminium can which dissolved and the stuff went over the floor, dried and went bang when he walked in, it was fun to read!

 

Heres the link: Edit: Removed as it was a link that stated how to make Nitrogen Triiodide...

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan Jones

[calbiterol]

Might want to remove that link, it contains directions on how to make NI₃, and knowing how many damn kewls exist these days...