Long Islanders suffer from NIMBY syndrome

[ecoli]

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-liwind174473327oct17,0,3905799.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines

 

It's a plan to install wind generated turbines off the coast of Long Island, New York. It would be the first offshore wind power in North America. Unfortunately most of us LIers are suffereing from NIMBY - not in my backyard.

 

This really pisses me off. Here is a perfect chance to cut fuel and energy costs in an effecient way. Nothing is more important right now...the excuse is that it will "ruin the view." Well guess what? I don't care about your stupid veiw, you selfish jerks. I care about the rising energy cost and the impending disaster because of it.

 

I wish those turbines could fit in my backyard... I'd let them do it without a second thought.

[Rasori]

I agree. I guess I can't technically speak, but I am just on the other shore of the Sound. I hate these NIMBY people. And I like the NIMBY term, I'd never heard it before lol.

 

I have no more say than any of the other CTites in the area, but I am for the Broadwater facility. Anything that may help us out (though wind power is a better concept in its entirety since it'll last longer). If you have something against that, that's fine. What annoys me is the CTites who complain about the Broadwater facility through NIMBY terms although it is ENTIRELY in LI water and so is Long Island's (New York's) decision. Representative DeLauro (damn her, she's from my area no less) was fighting the facility the other day, but she has no say and she annoys me because of that. Can't complain about something you can't fix. It doesn't help that I'm a Republican, though. That makes me dislike her much more.

 

Anyway, enough about my political stance. Yay for wind power, boo for NIMBY!

[cosine]

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-liwind174473327oct17' date='0,3905799.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines

 

It's a plan to install wind generated turbines off the coast of Long Island, New York. It would be the first offshore wind power in North America. Unfortunately most of us LIers are suffereing from NIMBY - not in my backyard.

 

This really pisses me off. Here is a perfect chance to cut fuel and energy costs in an effecient way. Nothing is more important right now...the excuse is that it will "ruin the view." Well guess what? I don't care about your stupid veiw, you selfish jerks. I care about the rising energy cost and the impending disaster because of it.

 

I wish those turbines could fit in my backyard... I'd let them do it without a second thought.[/quote']

 

What could be a better view than human ingenuity powered by the beautiful sound?

 

Edit: although this particular article is talking about windmills off the south shore, so not the sound. Doesn't ruin the idea anymore though.

[Green]

These so call NIMBY dudes think that they can still live the american dream ooof abundance.But sooory .ITs over.We need to focus now on the real shit thats facing the earth

[ecoli]

you're right, Green. I think the NIMBY syndrome is a result of years of ignorance. I guess they don't realize that everyone is responsible how we treat the earth. Instead of bitching and complaining, they should be honored that they are being given the oppurtunity to contribute to alternative energies.

 

Granted it won't save us money, but any increase in energy costs would not be too significant, and that's a small price to pay for our environment. And with the rising costs of fossil fuel, eventually it would pay off.

[Martin]

Here is some hopeful looking information about the Florida based company that will be in charge of the offshore turbines if it goes through.

 

FPL ENERGY

http://www.fplenergy.com/renewable/contents/wind.shtml

 

They own wind turbine generators in 15 states. They have almost 3 Gigawatt net capacity in wind (total).

 

they say that they generated about 40 percent of all the wind-generated kilowatthours last year.

 

So FPL energy is big in wind. good to know. I wonder what their balance sheet looks like.

 

On a separate matter, just rhetorical really, I'm reacting to this:

 

you're right, Green. I think the NIMBY syndrome is a result of years of ignorance...

 

Sometimes the NIMBY epithet is used unfairly to smear a JUSTIFIED local resistance to industrial or developer encroachment, where the energy and environment considerations may be on the side of the residents.

 

I urge anyone to watch out when you hear the term slung around. Sometimes those being shouted down by being called NIMBY could have a non-selfish case to make.

 

However in this case, CHEERS FOR WINDPOWER! I used to live on LI Sound, mainland shore ( Larchmont --- Rye section) and I know LI somewhat, though not so much the south shore actually. Jones Beach of course.

It will be an honor for LI to have the first line of offshore wind turbine.

 

Offshore potential tends to be large---great they're starting to develop it.

[Green]

Its a step in the right directionm

[ecoli]

Sometimes the NIMBY epithet is used unfairly to smear a JUSTIFIED local resistance to industrial or developer encroachment' date=' where the energy and environment considerations may be on the side of the residents.

 

I urge anyone to watch out when you hear the term slung around. Sometimes those being shouted down by being called NIMBY could have a non-selfish case to make.[/quote']

 

Ok, so maybe the residence are justified in resisting this project. Afterall, it's not immediately saving them money, and they do think it'll ruin their "view". I think, however, that they are missing the big picture. There are more important things in life then aesthetics (although I think that there is a certain grace to windmills...but that's just me).

 

Unfortunately, you cannot always have everything you want, and when push comes to shove, would you rather have clean energy or an unobstructed view of the ocean? I wonder how often these people look at the view anyway. They probably just want something to complain about.

 

A few years back, a similiar project was being considered for Long Island sound, out near the Hamptons. Of course all the billionaires who live out there shot it down right away... as if they live there any time except the summer.

 

ps. I apologize about all the generalizations, its just that issue is close to home for me, and I feel quite passionate about it.

[Martin]

Ok' date=' so maybe the residence are justified in resisting this project. Afterall, it's not immediately saving them money, and they do think it'll ruin their "view". I think, however, that they are missing the big picture. There are more important things in life then aesthetics (although I think that there is a certain grace to windmills...but that's just me).

 

Unfortunately, you cannot always have everything you want, and when push comes to shove, would you rather have clean energy or an unobstructed view of the ocean? I wonder how often these people look at the view anyway. They probably just want something to complain about.

 

A few years back, a similiar project was being considered for Long Island sound, out near the Hamptons. Of course all the billionaires who live out there shot it down right away... as if they live there any time except the summer.

 

ps. I apologize about all the generalizations, its just that issue is close to home for me, and I feel quite passionate about it.[/quote']

 

ecoli, I believe I share your passion in this case. I did not mean to criticize calling those particular local residents Nimbies (selfish jerks who obstruct achieving collective or national goals for their own private property interest).

 

indeed, judging from what information we have, they are Nimbies of the first water, and one need hardly apologize calling them so.

 

I believe windpower capacity at present is 46 Gigawatts worldwide, but mostly outside the US and in places like northern europe. US has less than 7 GW installed--- it should be built as rapidly as possible, more power to it. almost feel it's a matter of honor for the US to take more of a lead

 

I am referring to this commercial source (dont have a better readily at hand)

http://www.fplenergy.com/renewable/contents/wind.shtml

[Mokele]

Out of curiousity, how much power does the US consume? What fraction of the local and national power supply would this new facility supply?

[ecoli]

Out of curiousity, how much power does the US consume? What fraction of the local and national power supply would this new facility supply?

 

I was wondering that myself... obviously not everyone would be using windpower, but I hope the number is high enough to make it worth it. I'll try and found out.

 

 

edit: The windmills will produce about 140-megawatt of electricity output. Other offshore projects in the UK produce 60 megawatts, so that easy enough to compare the difference. The windmills is said to serve 44,000 homes... so obviously it would be pretty localized to that area, but it would save about 13.5 million barrels of oil annually. Which means eliminating the release of 235,000 tons of carbon dioxide 489 tons of sulfur dioxide and 221 tons of nitrogen oxide. There expected to act as artificial reefs, actually increasing fishing oppurtunities.

(http://www.lipower.org/cei/offshore.history.html)

 

Here's a projection of what it might look like... http://www.lipower.org/cei/offshore.jones.html I can't believe they think that the wind farm will destroy the view.

 

 

 

5,267 megawatts is the highest perday usage that LIPA recorded, in the summer of 2005.

[Martin]

...but I hope the number is high enough to make it worth it. I'll try and found out.

 

as you well know, change in electric power grid is only possible bit by bit

even a fraction of a percent of national KWH is important

here are some links that might be helpful. I dont have time to sort thru them:

EIA = energy information administration

 

I thought this report of EIA was the best but it is not the latest.

EIA's Renewable Energy Annual 2002.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/solar.renewables/page/rea_data/rea_sum.html

 

this report is condensed, so there is not so much to go thru

EIA's Country Analysis Briefs: USA 2005

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html

 

this report is current and extensive, probably only the Electricity chapter is of interest here.

EIA's Annual Energy Outlook 2005

TOC

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/

Electricity present status and trends

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/electricity.html

Some appendices with more data and projections.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/pdf/appa.pdf

[ecoli]

even a fraction of a percent of national KWH is important

 

I agree with that... I meant I hope its significant enough to convince the NIMBYs that its worth it.

[Martin]

I agree with that... I meant I hope its significant enough to convince the NIMBYs that its worth it.

 

when you learn energy figures and quote them in discussion, one thing people are careless about is to distinguish between the percent of the CAPACITY that is wind

 

and the percent of annual total electricity PRODUCTION that is wind.

 

(or coal, nuclear, naturalgas, geothermal, hydro, biofuel, etc...)

 

I am hoping not to sound critical, what I am hoping is that one of us will get a figure for the total windgenerated kilowattHOURS of electricity in the US in some recent year.

 

that can be compared, for example, to the total hydropowergenerated kilowattHOURS of electricity produced in the same year.

 

capacity does not tell the whole story because capacity (like megawatts or gigawatts) may not get used fully. so one has to have a figure of the actual kilowatthours

[ecoli]

I release the information you want Martin, I can't find it, however.

 

I took an Environmental Science class 2 yrs ago, and we had to memorize data like that, but for some reason I cannot find my old sources. I had charts and tables outlining the information you're asking for. The search continues.

 

edit: http://www.ewg.org/reports/choosinggreenenergy/sources.html this site may be usefull. It outlines some alt. energy resources. It says >1% of energy in US is currently windpower.

 

edit edit:

[Martin]

I release the information you want Martin' date=' I can't find it, however.

 

[/quote']

 

OK ecoli, then I will give some figures on actual wind kWh.

 

this is from the DOE, actual amount of net electricity production by wind in years 1999 thru 2003 (an update is expected but at present official documents only have up thru 2003)

 

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/solar.renewables/page/rea_data/table4.html

 

thousands of kilowatthours
1999            2000            2001            2002            2003
4,487,998      5,593,261       6,737,337      10,354,279        10,728,607 

 

 

the difficulty understanding might be one of scale. A huge coal or nuclear power plant produces roughly on the order of one GW net (here net means you deduct what electric power is used on-site to run the plants own pumps and cooling towers and all that). so if you imagine running one of those monsters for one hour----that makes one GWh of energy in form of electricity. Now how much did wind supply in those units?

 

wind electricity in GWh----i.e. in millions of kWh
1999            2000            2001            2002            2003
4,488	        5,593	        6,737	        10,354	     10,729 

 

Now there are about 8,800 hours in a year. so if you picture running a one GW powerplant for one year, non-stop (which in reality doesnt normally happen) then that one big powerplant would produce 8,800 GWh.

 

That is what we can compare windpower generation to, in terms of how much actual energy in the form of electricity was produced.

 

You can also probably find the total US annual elecricity consumption in terms of GWh, and compare it to the windpower figures, if you want

 

I see from this same table

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/solar.renewables/page/rea_data/table4.html

that wind looks like it is about to pass geothermal

and that wind is roughly 1/25 of hydro

(always in terms of actual amount of electricity kWh generated during the year)

 

where I live we get a substantial portion of our electricity from hydro in the Sierras, and also some from nearby geothermal steam fields. so I think of hydro and geothermal as important wellestablished sources. I am happy to see wind getting into that league

[ecoli]

nice post, Martin. That's a good find.

 

Of course the problem with geo and hydo power, is that it is very localized... I don't have a good source of either nearby (unless you consider tidal power as hydro...) Of course places like Las Vegas exist almost solely because of the advent of Hydroelectricity, so we can see how damagin hydro is to social america (bad joke, sorry)

[Hailstorm]

You guys have presented some of the worst arguments in existance.

 

The argument that these people should "suck it up to benefit everybody else" is bullpoop. Stop drinking starbucks and put it towards more efficient houses. Build a smaller house, leave the heat lower, don't turn the air conditioning so high, eat cheap cuts of meat.... blah blah blah.

 

These people paid a premium for their lots, and the lots ARE NOT REPLACABLE. They can't move to a new neighboorhood and plant the same trees.

[ecoli]

You guys have presented some of the worst arguments in existance.

 

The argument that these people should "suck it up to benefit everybody else" is bullpoop. Stop drinking starbucks and put it towards more efficient houses. Build a smaller house' date=' leave the heat lower, don't turn the air conditioning so high, eat cheap cuts of meat.... blah blah blah.

 

These people paid a premium for their lots, and the lots ARE NOT REPLACABLE. They can't move to a new neighboorhood and plant the same trees.[/quote']

 

Actually this is probably one of the worst posts I've ever read. You obviously have no understanding of the situation.

 

These people should be "sucking it up" to benefit themselves... the people whose "backyards" (I use that term loosely) the windmills are in are the ones who would benefit from it's clean energy. Near my house, there is an ugly smokestack that spews smog into the air as a side effect of burning oil. Why does nobody seem to care about the unaesthetics of that project?

 

 

The NIMBies obviously don't realize how terrible the current environmental situation is, or the current situation with fossil fuel costs. They maybe richer on that end of the island, but even they have their limits on how much they can spend to heat their enourmous homes.

[Hailstorm]

You really think the people with views of the water are seeing smoke stacks out that portion of their house? Go tell the people driving SUVs to trade their car in for a hybrid. Sure it might look and drive like crap, but they'd be doing their part to prevent air pollution.

[ecoli]

You really think the people with views of the water are seeing smoke stacks out that portion of their house? Go tell the people driving SUVs to trade their car in for a hybrid. Sure it might look and drive like crap, but they'd be doing their part to prevent air pollution.

 

I do... that's only part of the problem. Energy is needed to fuel homes, and this is the best spot to set up the windmills. The only thing the citizens can complain about is how the windmills could "ruin" the view... which is complete bullshit because windmills actually are quite beautiful. It might cost more, initailly, but with the rising cost of oil it wont be long before wind is also a cheaper in addition to clean alternative.

 

These people are suffering from "not in my backyard syndrome" and it seems as if the newspaper article is slanted towards their side... that kinda ticks me off.

[Hailstorm]

What's the price difference for a waterfront/bluff view lot and somewhere else? Furthermore, the waterfront/bluff lots have houses BUILT AROUND VIEWING THE WATER. The other lots simply do not. I know many people who simply will not move somewhere where they lack an uninterrupted view of the water.

[Mokele]

Wait a second... why not just make it so they can't see the windmills?

 

Seriously, the pic shown previously in this thread indicates they'd be seen as small things way off on the horizon. If you just paint them all sky blue, they'll only be visible in cloudy weather (when the view is crap anyway) and at dawn (when they'll be where you can't really look anyway because of the sun in your eyes.

 

It wouldn't even need to be a particularly good paint job, as at that distance, I doubt the human eye could distinguish the contours and contrast to see them.

 

Mokele

[ecoli]

I don't see why not... but I doubt anyone would think of that because it seems too obvious. And I don't think it would appease the NIMBies any... I think they just like to complain.

 

@ Hailstorm - I don't give a crap what it costs for beachfront property. The place where they're putting the windmills does not belong to them... and unless a vote passes against putting the windmills up, they should go up. If these people "need" an uninterupted view of the water, to the point where they are willing to sacrifice the environmental integrity of the earth, then they can move anywhere they want... preferably to hell.

[eruheru]

I don't see why not... but I doubt anyone would think of that because it seems too obvious. And I don't think it would appease the NIMBies any... I think they just like to complain.

 

@ Hailstorm - I don't give a crap what it costs for beachfront property. The place where they're putting the windmills does not belong to them... and unless a vote passes against putting the windmills up' date=' they should go up. If these people "need" an uninterupted view of the water, to the point where they are willing to sacrifice the environmental integrity of the earth, then they can move anywhere they want... preferably to hell.[/quote']

 

 

and its not like long island has the most beautiful of beaches