Muslim mob attacks church to protest movie about muslim mob attacking church

[Pangloss]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051021/wl_mideast_afp/egyptreligiondemo

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=17950_It_Was_a_Dark_and_Stormy_Night...&only

 

CAIRO (AFP) - One Muslim protestor was killed and dozens more wounded in violent clashes with police in Alexandria amid mounting tensions in the Egyptian Mediterranean city over a Christian video, the interior ministry said.

[Glider]

Ironic. Life imitating art, or the other way round? A chicken or egg dilemma.

[Mokele]

I swear, if The Onion printed that, I'd think they were running out of material and letting standards slip. That it happened in reality....

[AL]

Kind of like when Theo van Gogh was brutally murdered by a violent Islamic radical for making a film depicting the brutality of Islamic radicals?

 

So sad, I liked Theo van Gogh.

[Tiger's Eye]

I swear, if The Onion printed that, I'd think they were running out of material and letting standards slip. That it happened in reality....

 

No, it's real. In case there is any confusion about the subject matter, you can refer to the weblink below in order to access an article explaining the event:

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/2005102/ap_on_re_mi_ea/egypt_religious_conflict_1

 

And if this link doesn't work (since computers are mean!), you can find it urself by looking for the article. The title is "Egypt Police Guard Churches After Riots" and i found mine under Yahoo!News, but i'm sure other sites have the same articles as well.

 

If you guys have any questions, post them, and i'm sure that we'll all try to answer them Btw, personally, i believe this issue came about due to politics, not tension between religions. I just thought i'd throw that out there (i believe that it's explained in the article).

 

L8er,

 

Tiger

[Douglas]

A good example of multiculturism at work.

[LazerFazer]

People, you need to take into account the context of the situation.

 

I live in Egypt (not Alexandria, tho, but rather in Cairo), and so I can understand it a bit better than some others, I think. Anyway, heres the religious/social context. First of all, this happened during the Muslim holy month of Ramadaan, where spirituality is higher than normal. Secondly, it happened on a Friday, which is the holy day of the week for muslims. Put the two together, and you get extremely spiritually charged people that got angered at a fictional video that was supposedly about terrorism. In reality, it was a video depicting ALL Muslims as terrorist, a false claim. Historically, there has been almost no conflict between Muslims and Christians here in Egypt, but the situation just went overboard.

 

Cheers,

LazerFazer

[Douglas]

Maybe multiculturalism only works under authoritarian rule....as in Tito's Yugoslavia.

 

As the relationship between Muslims and Christians remain delicate, many fear that it will trigger a wave of violence. The New York Times described the mood in the city as "sour and explosive."

http://www.christianpost.com/article/africa/479/section/protest.over.controversial.drama.increases.muslim-christian.tensions.ahead.of.elections/1.htm.....

*************************************************

The protesters have given the church a week to apologise and dismiss its priest, Aljazeera's correspondent in Egypt said.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/F5FBDC54-31DE-43FB-A805-5BF2B5388A48.htm............

 

UK: Muslim group targets poster nudity

I don't like it either, but the question is: will Muslims in the UK and other Western countries live peacefully in a pluralistic society, without acting unilaterally (or violently) against things of which they disapprove? There are peaceful and orderly ways for them to register their disapproval of such things, and in the UK they will probably find officials ready to bend over backwards to please them.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/004769.php.....

[Tiger's Eye]

People' date=' you need to take into account the context of the situation.

 

I live in Egypt (not Alexandria, tho, but rather in Cairo), and so I can understand it a bit better than some others, I think. Anyway, heres the religious/social context. First of all, this happened during the Muslim holy month of Ramadaan, where spirituality is higher than normal. Secondly, it happened on a Friday, which is the holy day of the week for muslims. Put the two together, and you get extremely spiritually charged people that got angered at a fictional video that was supposedly about terrorism. In reality, it was a video depicting ALL Muslims as terrorist, a false claim. Historically, there has been almost no conflict between Muslims and Christians here in Egypt, but the situation just went overboard.

 

Cheers,

LazerFazer[/quote']

 

Yes, all of the above is true. Though I personally think that the intention of releasing the DVD is still a bit fuzzy, it's true that religion really isn't such a big issue in Egypt (I seriously can't believe some of the outrageous things that some pple have said, mainly on other websites: I can't believe that there are still churches there in the ME; stuff along the lines that Muslims always act violently and that westerners should give them what they deserve and blah blah blah. These are indeed FALSE claims). It's also true that being the holy month of Ramadaan, pple are more spiritual at this time. As a result (i'm not bashing anyone, just those who say certain things with a pretty narrowminded POV), I think that it's pretty insensitive for people to say that Muslims have gotten upset over this video because "the truth hurts". Yes, there are Islamic extremists and terrorists that may do not-so-great things, but this does not mean that ALL Muslims are terrorists or that all Muslims are violent! Heck, i'm pretty sure that there are violent christian extremists and terrorists as well (hey, i'm christian, too), or in any other religion, for that matter.

 

Okay, i may have lost the general meaning of what i wrote, so i'll sum it up. Mainly, i just wanted to confirm and back up what LazerFazer said, and to state my own thoughts. Really, I don't think that most people have the complete picture of everything. I'm not saying that I do; I'm sharing what i know.

 

L8er,

 

Tiger

[john5746]

I haven't seen the video, so I cannot comment on it, but there is no speech that can be used as an excuse for violence. Peaceful demonstration against speech is the way to go, for all groups. Especially if you are playing to a stereotype as was this case!

[LazerFazer]

Yes, I agree, but the thing is not to just blame the Muslims for the violence. The Christians also made a poor choice by showing the film during Ramadaan and on a friday nonetheless, and also for allowing such a branding to occur.

 

LF

[Pangloss]

Interesting points. I think the perspective that I had on it in posting this was just the "toss your hands up in the air and shake your head in wonder" perspective.

 

On the larger issue of peace in the middle east, I think this serves as a reminder that you can only take "understand root causes" arguments so far. Ultimately these people can beat each other's brains out for all I care. As an American, I don't consider it my duty to tell people how to run their world. I consider it my duty to be a good citizen in my own country, and thereby perhaps, over time, provide an example which others can emulate, expand, or ignore, as they choose.

 

Interesting posts, LazerFazer; thanks for jumping in.

[john5746]

Yes' date=' I agree, but the thing is not to just blame the Muslims for the violence. The Christians also made a poor choice by showing the film during Ramadaan and on a friday nonetheless, and also for allowing such a branding to occur.

 

LF[/quote']

 

Agreed. If you make a peaceful demonstration, you make them look like aholes, if you use violence, you make yourself an ahole.

[Mokele]

but the thing is not to just blame the Muslims for the violence. The Christians also made a poor choice by showing the film during Ramadaan and on a friday nonetheless, and also for allowing such a branding to occur.

 

I disagree. I don't care who you are, and how offensive or ill-timed the words are, violence is *never* a justifiable reaction. Being provoked does not in any way ameliorate moral responsibility for the conscious decision to engage in acts of violence. Self control is vital to civilization.

 

Mokele

[john5746]

I disagree. I don't care who you are' date=' and how offensive or ill-timed the words are, violence is *never* a justifiable reaction. Being provoked does not in any way ameliorate moral responsibility for the conscious decision to engage in acts of violence. Self control is vital to civilization.

 

Mokele[/quote']

 

I'm not so sure about that, it may depend on the offensiveness and the level of violence used. If a white skinhead gets on a bus full of blacks and yells the "N" word several times, he should expect to get some violence toward him. Maybe it doesn't justify the violence, but I think he shares some blame? Or maybe we just say he is stupid and leave it at that.

[Mokele]

There's statistical blame and moral blame. Does said skinhead shoulder some statistical blame, yes. But the two are not the same, and regardless of the provokation, the moral blame would fall on those who resorted to violence.

 

I've found the statistical/moral blame concept very useful in the past, and invented to deal with a debate on rape.

 

Mokele

[Glider]

If a white skinhead gets on a bus full of blacks and yells the "N" word several times,....

...and gets completely ignored by everybody on the bus, he becomes a humiliated, undermined little twat faced with the knowledge that he doesn't even have the power to elicit a response. One who causes a riot has demonstrated his power to effect change and that the people kicking the crap out of him are as predictable as he is.

[Skye]

I don't think that Ramadan is an excuse. It's not even a good reason. Ramadan is a time when Muslims generally put extra effort into following Islam, and that includes generally being peacable.

[john5746]

...and gets completely ignored by everybody on the bus, he becomes a humiliated, undermined little twat faced with the knowledge that he doesn't even have the power to elicit a response. One who causes a riot has demonstrated his power to effect change and that the people kicking the crap out of him are as predictable as he is.

 

Oh, I completely agree, as I stated similar sentiments in a previous post. Still, I would find it hard to exact the same punishment in this situation than if the victim was completely innocent.

 

I like Mokele's seperation of Blame

[LazerFazer]

Oh, dont get me wrong, I definately do not agree with violence. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't just put the blame on the Muslims. There are a lot of things that factor into the situation, and playing the blame game doesn't help anything. What we should rather do is try to find a way to prevent the situation in the future. Yes, peacefull protest is the best way to go, but get realistic, is it ever going to happen? Not unless another Ghandi comes along. Or at least someone as influential as him. Rather, as I said, we should take steps to prevent the same type of situation in the future. Which is partially the reason why I enjoy posting on science-oriented websites much more than others. At least here logic and rational thoughts prevail... instead of prejudice and close-mindedness.

 

cheers,

LF

[john5746]

... Yes' date=' peacefull protest is the best way to go, but get realistic, is it ever going to happen? Not unless another Ghandi comes along. Or at least someone as influential as him. Rather, as I said, we should take steps to prevent the same type of situation in the future. Which is partially the reason why I enjoy posting on science-oriented websites much more than others. At least here logic and rational thoughts prevail... instead of prejudice and close-mindedness.

 

cheers,

LF[/quote']

 

Correct, and no one in this thread had been prejudice or close-minded. Someone like Ghandi is indeed rare, but there have been many peaceful protests since him, I'm sure some Muslims have done this, they just tend not to get the attention that violence gets.

[Glider]

I like Mokele's seperation of Blame

So do I, but I think that's mainly because it agrees largely with my own ideas on blame

 

I think that blame falls proportionately to responsibility, and I don't think that those responsible for non-violent provocation are responsible for any subsequent violence. I think the two are separate things.

 

Outside of self-defence, violence is a volitional act, unless we are prepared to admit that we do not have free will and that we are not in control of our own actions. We can't have it both ways.

 

Those responsible for provocation are guilty of making violence more likely given their probable knowledge of the nature of people. But they can only be said to have 'lowered the threshold' as it were. They can't be considered guilty of causing violence. The cause of violence is always the choice of the individual to commit violence. To use an analogy, it's like that way long-term potentiation makes a neuron more likely to fire, but is not in and of itself, the cause of an action potential.

 

It could even be argued (accurately in most cases) that those guilty of provocation want violence to result from it. But unless they commit a violent act, they can't be said to have caused violence. And if they're that stupid, why should people give them what they want?