Ahmadinejad says Israel will be wiped out

[Severian]

Nationalism is also stupid. I have much more in common with my wife, who is German, than I have with the vast majority of UK citizens. So why would I back the UK over Germany? It doesn't make sense. If I want to reinforce my viewpoint on the rest of the world (which I don't) then I would be better backing an ideology rather than a nation.

 

Zionism is "a policy for establishing and developing a national homeland for Jews in Palestine," therefore "A World without Zionism" would entail... wiping Israel off the map...

 

Since Isreal is already established and has already developed, then there is no need for zionism any more, is there? Or perhaps you want them to "develop" a little further eastwards?

[YT2095]

Nationalism is also stupid. I have much more in common with my wife, who is German, than I have with the vast majority of UK citizens.

 

so? why is nationalism "Stupid"? is it because YOU`RE not a nationalist, is that your reasoning?

 

support that insult!

[Severian]

Why would I support someone who has a viewpoint contrary to my own, just because they are of the same nationality? When I say 'stupid' I am meaning that it brings about a course of action which is disadvantageous to my wellbeing. If I supposrt someone who disagrees with me because they are the same nationality then I risk having their viewpoint brought into practice, which in turn disadvantages me.

 

Imagine a southern black man during the civil war. I would call him 'stupid' if he supported the confederacy just because he was a southerner - wouldn't you?

 

You may find that you agree with the view of your government and therefore support them 100%. That is fine, but then you are not supporting them because they are British - you are supporting them because you agree with them.

[YT2095]

I`m an Englishman, and I love England, I`m proud to be English.

I`de be against anything that threatens this. although I may not support the actions taken by our leaders all the time.

 

Comapre:

 

I`m a married man, I love my wife, and I`m happy with her.

I`de ba against anything that threatens this. although I may not support all of her choices.

 

does not supporting a decision made by our leaders stop me being a nationalist?

of course not, no more than me not liking my wifes choice of curtains makes me not married.

 

as for the Black guy arg, he`s hardly likely to have been a nationalist at that point is he!? he`de certainly have a screw loose if he was, and it doesn`t compare in anyway either.

 

Nationalism is NOT stupid!

[JohnB]

Guys, guys, nationalism is pointless, you can't all become Australians.

[john5746]

Imagine a southern black man during the civil war. I would call him 'stupid' if he supported the confederacy just because he was a southerner - wouldn't you?

 

http://www.nps.gov/pete/mahan/eduhistafam.html

 

They did have some free blacks work for the confederacy. I wouldn't be too quick to label them stupid. War is more complicated than it appears on paper.

 

 

You may find that you agree with the view of your government and therefore support them 100%. That is fine' date=' but then you are not supporting them because they are British - you are supporting them because you agree with them.[/quote']

 

I disagree with the war in Iraq, but I do trust that America is trying to do the right thing. Yes, it is mostly self-serving but as long as I view them better than "the other side", then I will complain, but not actively campaign against them. I agree with your point, just saying it is more of a relative choice. Hopefully, someday all people can find pride in themselves for just being human, not for nationality, religion, creed, etc.

[YT2095]

I`de like to point out, WHERE does it say that Loyalty (a rare commodity today) has to be blind?

[ecoli]

Nationalism is also stupid. I have much more in common with my wife, who is German, than I have with the vast majority of UK citizens. So why would I back the UK over Germany? It doesn't make sense. If I want to reinforce my viewpoint on the rest of the world (which I don't) then I would be better backing an ideology rather than a nation.

 

So nationalist efforts that put a man on the moon are also stupid? Sometimes feats take the whole nation to rally for that feat, especially in a democracy.

 

Remember, JFK promised "WE" [Americans] will put a man on the moon. Not "I" or "the government" or "nasa."

 

Since Isreal is already established and has already developed, then there is no need for zionism any more, is there? Or perhaps you want them to "develop" a little further eastwards?

 

Today Zionism is symbiotic with Israel, I'm sure the meeting was not just talking about trying to halt Israeli expansion... which isn't happening. They pulled OUT of gaza, remember? The Zionist movement is alive and well, as it needs to be until Israel's security is assured.

[Severian]

So nationalist efforts that put a man on the moon are also stupid?

 

Well... yes. At least it was stupid to do it for nationalist reasons.

 

Today Zionism is symbiotic with Israel' date=' I'm sure the meeting was not just talking about trying to halt Israeli expansion... which isn't happening. They pulled OUT of gaza, remember? The Zionist movement is alive and well, as it needs to be until Israel's security is assured.[/quote']

 

I didn't say that I approved of what they were discussing. I merely pointed out that the title of the conference is not offensive at all.

 

In fact, even if you take a very niave view and regard Zionism as as simply maintaining a Jewish state in Palestine, then I still don't agree with it. Any state which actively maintains a religious or racial purity needs to be changed. States should be for all of their citizens, regardless of their belief systems or skin colour. I have no objection to Israel as a state, but I do object to Israel as a Jewish state. (For the same reasons, I object to the UK being a Christian state, even though I am a Christian myself.)

[ecoli]

I didn't say that I approved of what they were discussing. I merely pointed out that the title of the conference is not offensive at all.

 

it is if you are a zionist.

 

In fact, even if you take a very niave view and regard Zionism as as simply maintaining a Jewish state in Palestine, then I still don't agree with it.

 

Whether it's niave or not, it's the truth. Zionism is still considered to be an Israeli concept.

 

Any state which actively maintains a religious or racial purity needs to be changed. States should be for all of their citizens, regardless of their belief systems or skin colour. I have no objection to Israel as a state, but I do object to Israel as a Jewish state. (For the same reasons, I object to the UK being a Christian state, even though I am a Christian myself.)

 

Well, first you must understand that Israel does not keep a religious purity, at least in the way you make it sound. People of all races and religions can be found in Israel. They are granted citizenship, can vote... etc.

As for Israel being a Jewish state.... you can find Israeli's who'd agree with you, espeically the ones on the left.

 

However, Israel was created as a Jewish homeland to protect against the possibility of another holocaust for the Jewish people. That noble intention being stated... do you think it's time to re-evaluate that desicion?

[Severian]

it is if you are a zionist.

 

That is hardly a valid concern. I am sure that a Nazi would find the desire to wipe facism off the face of the Earth offensive' date=' but who cares?

 

Well, first you must understand that Israel does not keep a religious purity, at least in the way you make it sound. People of all races and religions can be found in Israel.

 

There are lots and lots of people who were born in the land now occupied by Israel who are not Israeli citizens and who are not even allowed to live there. There is also rampant racism enshrined by the state against anyone who is not Jewish.

 

However, Israel was created as a Jewish homeland to protect against the possibility of another holocaust for the Jewish people. That noble intention being stated... do you think it's time to re-evaluate that desicion?

 

No it wasn't. The holocaust was fuel on the fire (so to speak), but Israel in Palestine was being seriously proposed way before WWII. In fact, Israel was created mainly because Britain, who controlled the territory, caved in to terrorists. Do you honestly think the Jewish people in Britain or the US were in any danger of another holocaust?

[Douglas]

Nationalism is NOT stupid!

I AGREE

 

IMO, A country without citizenry patriotism is vulnerable from "within" or "outside".

 

And IMO, impartiality, or in some cases aversion and antipathy can lead to defeatism, capitulation and/or fleeing.

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by ecoli

So nationalist efforts that put a man on the moon are also stupid?

 

Well... yes. At least it was stupid to do it for nationalist reasons.

Why wouldn't it be nationalistic, since the Americans were in a race with the USSR ?

[Severian]

Why wouldn't it be nationalistic, since the Americans were in a race with the USSR ?

 

Well, it could have been a race between capitalism and communism.

[Douglas]

Well, it could have been a race between capitalism and communism.

Ok...one can look at it that way.

[Aardvark]

Ok...one can look at it that way.

 

It was the stars and stripes on the moon, not the golden arches of McDonalds. Seeing the rivalry between the USA and the USSR as purely a matter of ideology is ridiculously narrow. The nation state is the natural unit of of organisation for humans. Patriotism and Nationalism are what drive world events.

[Severian]

It was the stars and stripes on the moon, not the golden arches of McDonalds. Seeing the rivalry between the USA and the USSR as purely a matter of ideology is ridiculously narrow. The nation state is the natural unit of of organisation for humans. Patriotism and Nationalism are what drive world events.

 

How wonderfully niave! Why do you think the US won the cold war? It was because capitalism was more successful as an economic system than communism. The US did not win because its citizens are more patriotic.

 

Money is what drives world events....

[Douglas]

How wonderfully niave! Why do you think the US won the cold war? It was because capitalism was more successful as an economic system than communism. The US did not win because its citizens are more patriotic.

Certainly capitalism played a role. But in terms of the space race (Ecoli's example), IMO, nationalism and patriotism played a more important role.

[YT2095]

and it sure as hell was a Morale booster!

[Douglas]

and it sure as hell was a Morale booster!

Absolutely

[LazerFazer]

Alright, people have repeatedly asked me to provide evidence for many of my claims, primarily the one that Islam is a religion of peace. Well, I have finally found concrete evidence that I hope will convince the many skeptics around here that Islam does not preach death, destruction, and terrorism.

 

[Quran 7:28] They commit a gross sin' date=' then say,

"We found our parents doing this, and GOD

has commanded us to do it." Say,

"GOD never advocates sin.

Are you saying about GOD

what you do not know?"

[/quote']

 

And also an echo of sorts of what I said a couple of posts ago:

 

Like all the other religions of God' date=' Islam (Submission in English) promotes peace, love and harmony among the people. Actually the word "Islam" in addition to meaning submission (to God), is also derived from the Arabic word Salam (peace). The Muslims (Submitters) greet other people by saying Salaam (Peace be upon you).

[/quote']

 

And another quote, this time advocating peace with Quraanic backing:

 

[Quran 5:87] ... and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.

 

[Quran: 7:199] ......You shall resort to pardon' date=' advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant.

[/quote']

 

And now taking a stance on killing:

[Quran 6:151] "...... You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you' date=' that you may understand."

 

[Quran17:33'] "You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. ....."

 

Just some proof, as I said, that Islam is a peacefull religion. The actual article is really long, so here is the link to it.

 

Cheers,

LazerFazer

[Aardvark]

How wonderfully niave! Why do you think the US won the cold war? It was because capitalism was more successful as an economic system than communism. The US did not win because its citizens are more patriotic.

 

How wonderfully of target!

 

I didn't state that communism was as successful as capitalism or that Americans were/are more patriotic than Russians. I stated that the nation rivalries were based on nationalism rather than ideology. America didn't go to the moon to prove that capitalism is superior to communism, they went to prove that America is superior to other nations.

 

Money is what drives world events....

 

Now who's being naive?

[cosine]

How wonderfully niave! Why do you think the US won the cold war? It was because capitalism was more successful as an economic system than communism. The US did not win because its citizens are more patriotic.

 

Money is what drives world events....

 

The fall of the Soviet Union was actually driven into the ground by their years of military work in the Middle East. You know, invading Afgahnistan and all over a number of years will deplete someone's resources...

 

Ironic? No, just sad.