Blacks play ball better?

[-Demosthenes-]

But if we think it's okay to say that blacks can play ball better' date=' then why is it not okay to suggest that blacks are mentally inferior/superior?

 

Since we're talking about genetics in both cases, what's the difference? Why is it okay to suggest one form of genetic superiority, but suggesting another form of genetic superiority raises six kinds of holy hell?[/quote']

 

It is curious that you can see that certain races seem to have a tendency to be better/worse at something or different is some way, but you can't really talk about it, or bring attention to it (without being "racist"). It is an extremely touchy subject. I don't think that you should judge individuals based on racial tendencies, but I also think that it can sometimes be blown out of proportion.

[swansont]

You don't need genetic evidence. There is plenty of statistical evidence to support the assurtion that blacks are' date=' in general, better athletes.

 

http://archive.salon.com/books/feature/2000/01/28/taboo/print.html

[/quote']

 

The article is thin on statistical evidence, and is wrong about baseball - this year only 9% of major leage players were black, and no blacks were on the N.L. champ Astros, which is one reason people noticed the under-representation (mentioned here and elsewhere). And what about hockey, and swimming? Tennis? Golf? I think part of the problem with the analyses is that the investigators are being selective in which data they look at (i.e. they are being journalists, not scientists) and that comes out early in the Salon article - they limit their discussion to certain positions on the football field, for example. Nothing like coming up with your conclusion, and then finding data and formulating the proper question to reach that conclusion. ("Journalism" Uggh.)

 

The article to which I linked also includes this statement discussing the lower-than-average representation in baseball: "That's because we, black American men, have turned away from baseball." If they aren't playing baseball, they might be playing something else. This goes right along with a previously-mentioned possibility - whites are choosing different sports to play more than blacks.

 

The article does touch on one possibility, but not in very much depth. It may very well be that there is no average difference between racial groups, but there is a larger standard deviation with, in this case, blacks, with respect to the specific skills involved. That is consistent with the best athletes being overrepresented by one group, but not conclusive. (This is the same argument presented regarding IQ difference between men and women; I think Martin had started a thread about it a while back)

 

Anecdotes aren't evidence, and for good reason. "The best black athletes are better" (with a proper definition of "better athletes") may well be true, but I don't think anything presented definitively can draw that conclusion, because there are so many variables that haven't been addressed. I don't think that this situation has come close to being studied critically/scientifically.

[H W Copeland]

Anyway' date=' getting back to [b']why[/b], You have to be careful about telling the truth nowadays.....it's a sensitivity thingy.

You may recall that Christy Todd Whitman fired the head of the NJ state troopers for telling the truth. And many other heads have rolled for truth telling.

 

True, but doesn't that compormise the "science" in the so-called study?

 

If, after all, the full results of a scientific inquiry cannot be released because of political reasons, is it still science?

[Pangloss]

Fascinating set of posts above. You guys always come up with the most interesting angles. An excellent discussion.

[ecoli]

True' date=' but doesn't that compormise the "science" in the so-called study?

 

If, after all, the full results of a [i']scientific inquiry [/i]cannot be released because of political reasons, is it still science?

 

I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time scientific studies have been repressed. However, I don't think it would be any less science, unless the results of the part of the experiment that have been realised is innacurate because of the data that hasn't been realised. In that case, you probably should realise any data because your results would be wrong. And that's unscientific.

[Jarryd]

I think to make such generalizations is far from a productive thing to do because it adds to more critical statements like all black men or criminals or all asian people are bad drivers. Statements that are generally created as a way to insult a culture. However there is some science and logic to such statements, people of african decent because of years of evolution tend to have longer legs and arms because of the need to increase surface area in the hot climates of africa. These attributes are generally considered great for a game such as basketball. And as for asian people being generally more intelligent, i think thats more of a cultural thing.. the oriental way of life generally has a strong basis in work ethic and learning.. unlike more lazy caucasian views of education and work. This has probably grown from the highly competetive nature of the chinese and japanese markets.

 

Another not so racial but still controversal generalization is those made about gay and lesbians in the western world. This affects me personally as a bisexual male that my masculinity is constantly being taken into question because of my sexuality. Of course like the other generalzations these don't come without grounds, many young gay men find it easier to surround themselves with female friends because they relate to the same sexual interests which may cause a gay man to grow up with somewhat effeminet traits, unfortunately this is the side the media seems to most enjoy and portray as a stereotype. Like the other things although it may seem like a harmless and justified generalization is leads to discrimination and labelling which is not productive.

[Severian]

Yes, it is a racial slur to say 'blacks play ball better' because it is creating an artificial segregation in an area which it is not relevant. Rather than seeing people as individuals the speaker has implicitly created a racial segregation - a 'them and us' mentality.

 

In reality, there are large fluctuations in people's abilities to "play ball", irrespective of race, which will far outweigh any racial (dis)advantage. A possibly true (?) statement could be that the genes determining skin colour and ability to "play ball" may show a correlation in genetic samples, but this is badly misrepresented by the phrase "blacks play ball better".

[john5746]

And as for asian people being generally more intelligent, i think thats more of a cultural thing.. the oriental way of life generally has a strong basis in work ethic and learning.. unlike more lazy caucasian views of education and work. This has probably grown from the highly competetive nature of the chinese and japanese markets.

 

What if there really is a genetic component to it? One problem I see is that we constantly do demographic studies and then produce solutions to combat the differences in achievment by race. In some situations, we may have to consider genetic differences and say it isn't caused by any social element. We should try to an extent, but don't waste resources on trying to equalize something that may not be equitable.

[budullewraagh]

since when were caucasians lazy? since when were asians more studious than others? name a famous physicist. chances are he/she's european. asians you see may be more studious becuase they're the parents of immigrants who worked their asses off to go to college, get a job and leave their home land

[Severian]

name a famous physicist. chances are he/she's european.

 

Kinoshita, Maskawa, Wu, Yukawa, Ting, Koshiba, Tomonaga, Yang, Chandrasekhar, Bose, Giri, Raman ....

[-Demosthenes-]

name a famous physicist. chances are he/she's european.

Largely because in the US european history is taught in public school, whereas Asian history is generally ignored.

[Douglas]

Kinoshita, Maskawa, Wu, Yukawa, Ting, Koshiba, Tomonaga, Yang, Chandrasekhar, Bose, Giri, Raman ....

and Homi Jehangir Bhabha

......................

[YT2095]

it may have been more diplomaticly preferential (and factual) to have stated that SOME Blacks play ball better.

 

just an observation

[Douglas]

to have stated that SOME Blacks play ball better.

just an observation

True, but I think that was implied. BTW, when I say "ball" I specifically mean basketball, which is where a large part of the evidence lies.

 

Edited to add....I don't see it as a racial slur as some people do. I simply see it as a fact of life.........of which there are many.

[budullewraagh]

"Largely because in the US european history is taught in public school, whereas Asian history is generally ignored."

last i checked, us and global history classes didn't teach anything about physicists, save newton

 

 

"Kinoshita, Maskawa, Wu, Yukawa, Ting, Koshiba, Tomonaga, Yang, Chandrasekhar, Bose, Giri, Raman ...."

now if we search for "famous physicists," our first result is the following:

http://www.phy.hr/~dpaar/fizicari/

yukawa is the only one mentioned. in fact, he was the only guy mentioned who wasn't white, so fancy that.

 

according to the second hit, http://cnr2.kent.edu/~manley/physicists.html

 

there are 4 indian, 4 japanese and 3 chinese and one pakistani nobel laureate in physics, including ___-born americans

 

this isn't to say that asians are inferior. i love my asian friends. i'm currently seeing someone who is first generation indian and possibly the most brilliant person i've ever met. i have a great number of close friends who are of asian descent. and i do recognize the fact that asians have contributed a whole lot to physics. however, i would not say that white people are inferior because they don't have the "work ethic" that is allegedly part of asian culture. visit china. you'll find plenty of lazy, unintelligent people, just as you'll find anywhere else. if you were to take the smartest europeans and ship them off to, say, pakistan, they would be considered far more studious, just as asians often are in the us. if you take a sample of the elite of one culture and compare them to the average of another, you won't obtain accurate results on the "work ethic" of one culture relative to another

[Severian]

now if we search for "famous physicists' date='" our first result is the following:

http://www.phy.hr/~dpaar/fizicari/

yukawa is the only one mentioned. in fact, he was the only guy mentioned who wasn't white, so fancy that.

 

according to the second hit, http://cnr2.kent.edu/~manley/physicists.html

 

there are 4 indian, 4 japanese and 3 chinese and one pakistani nobel laureate in physics, including ___-born americans

[/quote']

 

That is a statement about the people who compiled these lists - not about asian physicists.

[YT2095]

True' date=' but I think that was implied. BTW, when I say "ball" I specifically mean basketball, which is where a large part of the evidence lies.

 

Edited to add....I don't see it as a racial slur as some people do. I simply see it as a fact of life.........of which there are many.[/quote']

 

agreed, I don`t see it as a Slur either, and I stand corrected on the former point, I Should have said, "SOME Blacks play Basketball better"

[budullewraagh]

"That is a statement about the people who compiled these lists - not about asian physicists."

i hope you realize that you are implying that the nobel prizes of old are all of sham.

 

have you any comments on any other part of my most recent post?

 

btw douglas, i'm better at basketball than the 5 year old black kid across the street. i think you should consider saying "some" or "most" instead of making the generalization of "all"

[Douglas]

Hey Bud, if I said "all", I didn't mean it and I stand corrected.

[Pangloss]

i would not say that white people are inferior because they don't have the "work ethic" that is allegedly part of asian culture. visit china. you'll find plenty of lazy, unintelligent people, just as you'll find anywhere else. if you were to take the smartest europeans and ship them off to, say, pakistan, they would be considered far more studious, just as asians often are in the us. if you take a sample of the elite of one culture and compare them to the average of another, you won't obtain accurate results on the "work ethic" of one culture relative to another

 

Well put.