"Acting white?"

[H W Copeland]

I didn't know whether to post this in Education or politics, so I tossed a coin and it came down politics.

 

Read this article. It looks like a lot of black students are cutting off their noses to spite their faces.....

 

http://rdu.news14.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=76301

[Phi for All]

I don't see this as a racial thing. I see it as a small segment of the student population who have found a good excuse not to try too hard. There are other students who claim they don't try hard because they'll be considered nerds. And still others who claim they don't get good grades in Theater class because they'll be considered gay. Poor excuses being used as a crutch, imo.

 

As far as hanging around with white kids and not using slang, well that's just reading your audience. Kids talk differently to their parents and other authority figures than they do to their peeps. And they talk differently to kids outside their inner circle of best buds too. It's not acting white or anything else, it's just basic communication. If you don't want to have to repeat yourself or explain your terminology every ten seconds, you use language your audience can understand.

[Douglas]

I don't like the phrase "acting too white", but if we take it for what it means, I'd suggest that more blacks "act too white".

[Aardvark]

I see it as a small segment of the student population who have found a good excuse not to try too hard. There are other students who claim they don't try hard because they'll be considered nerds. And still others who claim they don't get good grades in Theater class because they'll be considered gay. Poor excuses being used as a crutch, imo.

 

You misunderstand.

 

It's not a case of children using the notion of 'acting white' as an excuse not to work, it's a case of black children being subject to abuse if they work hard and are successful, being taunted that they are 'acting white'.

[Douglas]

it's a case of black children being subject to abuse if they work hard and are successful' date=' being taunted that they are 'acting white'.[/quote']And therein lies the tragedy.

[Phi for All]

You misunderstand.

 

It's not a case of children using the notion of 'acting white' as an excuse not to work' date=' it's a case of black children being subject to abuse if they work hard and are successful, being taunted that they are 'acting white'.[/quote']I read the article. I didn't misunderstand. I think the students who are doing the abusing are the ones perpetuating the notion that if you study hard and get good grades then you are trying to "act white".

 

I was talking about the motivation behind the abuse. If the taunting underachievers can attach the "acting white" stigma to getting good grades, they gain an excuse for not studying hard themselves.

[Aardvark]

I was talking about the motivation behind the abuse. If the taunting underachievers can attach the "acting white" stigma to getting good grades' date=' they gain an excuse for not studying hard themselves.[/quote']

 

Ah, i see what you mean, fair point. However, it remains that the hard working children who want to do well who are the ones subject to the abuse.

 

In addition it all contributes to the general anti intellectual bias in society. Children are surrounded by a culture that looks down upon intelligence and hard work. This will affect even those children who are not looking for excuses for laziness. It all makes it that much harder for children to achieve their potential, it's more than just a few excuses from the lazy ones justifying their failures.

[Phi for All]

Ah, i see what you mean, fair point. However, it remains that the hard working children who want to do well who are the ones subject to the abuse.

I quite agree. One can only hope that the truly intelligent ones will be able to see negative peer pressure for what it is. Perhaps we need an anti-dumb campaign similar to the anti-drug campaigns which point out that misery loves company.

In addition it all contributes to the general anti intellectual bias in society. Children are surrounded by a culture that looks down upon intelligence and hard work.

Is it that way in the UK as well? In the US I put much of the blame on our obsession with sports and the athletes who make mega-millions for playing games half the year. It's hard to teach children that working smart AND hard is best when their sports heroes gain fame and fortune while getting away with drug abuse, assault and even murder.

[Aardvark]

One can only hope that the truly intelligent ones will be able to see negative peer pressure for what it is.

 

There are always a few who escape the pressure, but peer pressure is remarkably powerful, scarily so.

 

Perhaps we need an anti-dumb campaign similar to the anti-drug campaigns which point out that misery loves company.

 

 

Great idea, but i'm not sure what the practicalities would be. Perhaps a series of short films promoting role models, smart adults who came up from bad/difficult backgrounds, facing the same pressures and choices as a lot of children, to go on to do cool things like be fighter pilots and volcanologists.

 

How to make professions like quantity surveying and medicine cool?

 

Is it that way in the UK as well? In the US I put much of the blame on our obsession with sports and the athletes who make mega-millions for playing games half the year. It's hard to teach children that working smart AND hard is best when their sports heroes gain fame and fortune while getting away with drug abuse, assault and even murder.

 

I have pupils who actually boast to me about how 'thick' they are, it makes me furious. I don't know how much of it is because of sporting and entertainment role models who are stupid and uncivilised but i'd bet it's a major factor.

 

In addition there seems to be a 'tall poppy syndrome' in the UK. If one person does particularly well this is seen as grounds for resentment rather than admiration. Someone who does well is seen as 'getting above themselves', they 'think they're better than everyone else' and so on. Whereas there is no stigma to failing.

 

All this results in children not believing that they are clever or can do well and those who do try being viewed in a negative light. The general waste of human potential and chronic underachievement i see every day is very angering.

[Mokele]

While I agree with much of what has been said above, I cannot help but add a bit of input. Throughout much of my education, I've usually been the curve-breaker, the nerd, etc, but recently I actually wound up in a situation which was the reversal of that.

 

Specifically, I was taking Japanese class, which was required for my degree, and which I couldn't switch out of without delaying my graduation, so I *had* to pass. I'm not very good with languages, especially not spoken, so this added up to a lot of stress and anxiety about my grades in that class; I worried more about Japanese than all of my biology classes, even the high-level, high-difficulty ones. One semester, we're joined by two students who'd lived in japan for a time, who could effortlessly answer any of the questions, and who could be heard occaisionally snickering when the rest of us made normal mistakes. Frankly, I wanted to throttle both of them. That someone could so easily do what I had such trouble with inspired nothing short of seething jealousy and resentment.

 

Eventually they left, but I can only imagine the problem for students who are actually not terribly bright, feeling that way in every class, where they can never get it right and never answer a question without being painfully aware of how they're probably wrong and embarassing themselves. I can fully see how making lack of intelligence into a merit in their minds would even help them preserve their self esteem; I effectively did the same thing and still do by universally proclaiming that I'm bad at learning languages. Of course, the only way to maintain this attitud is to perpetually assure themselves that they really are better or just as good, often by asserting their dominance physically or verbally in an effort to bring high achievers back to their level.

 

Of course, this doesn't really help the situation, but I do think that perhaps a level of thought should be given to the ones superficially revelling in their dumbness, rather than just assuming they need to either work harder or just shut up and be left behind. Personally, I favor highly divided classes, in which all the high-level students are together and all the low-level students together, to minimize this sort of thing (and also facilitate different speeds and intensities of coursework).

 

Mokele

[Jarryd]

Ok this may make me sound like some 40 year old conservative, but i think the main problem here is not many academic role models for students (in paticular minority groups). I mean is academic achievment praised by many peer groups in schools? From my experience the smart person is generally looked down upon by most fellow students (of any race). This is because kids simply don't see the point or the good that can come from trying hard at school. (Ok now i can stop and feel young again).

[H W Copeland]

Ok this may make me sound like some 40 year old conservative, but i think the main problem here is not many academic role models for students (in paticular minority groups). I mean is academic achievment praised by many peer groups in schools? From my experience the smart person is generally looked down upon by most fellow students (of any race). This is because kids simply don't see the point or the good that can come from trying hard at school. (Ok now i can stop and feel young again).

 

I can't quite agree with all of this.

 

Among white kids, I think it depends on the kid. If he is a nerd that doesn't quite fit in with the rest of the crowd, perhaps, but if he gets high grades and is also part of the teenage culture, then I think most would admire him on all counts--including the academic part.

 

As far as Asians are concerned, it is my understanding that high grades among that group is almost always admired.

 

I do agree that high grades is not respected among blacks and I think that is a shame and if there is something that can be done about it, it should be done.

 

I think this is what Bill Cosby was alluding to when he made his statement about kids and slang and acheivement.

[john5746]

Of course' date=' this doesn't really help the situation, but I do think that perhaps a level of thought should be given to the ones superficially revelling in their dumbness, rather than just assuming they need to either work harder or just shut up and be left behind. Personally, I favor highly divided classes, in which all the high-level students are together and all the low-level students together, to minimize this sort of thing (and also facilitate different speeds and intensities of coursework).

 

Mokele[/quote']

 

I agree completely. You could easily have one teacher with 50 students if they have the skills and are motivated to learn. You could then free up a teacher to give more individual attention to the struggling students. There can be problems with this, such as those in the middle, maybe using computers in a sensible way - to deliver individualized courses and instruction will help.

 

Currently, the bright students get bored and lazy while the struggling ones give up.

[Douglas]

I think this is what Bill Cosby was alluding to when he made his statement about kids and slang and acheivement.

It's unfortunate that the Bill Cosby's of the world have not replaced the Jesse Jackson's of the world as the leaders of the Black community.

[H W Copeland]

It's unfortunate that the Bill Cosby's of the world have not replaced the Jesse Jackson's of the world as the leaders of the Black community.

 

I agree to that!

 

It is almost like the Black community is being farmed......

[-Demosthenes-]

Sorry I don't have much to add, but the the book "Black Like Me" it tells about how those blacks who became successful were seen as traitors to the black community (of couse this was in the early 60's I beleive).

[YT2095]

Pathetic! absolutely Pathetic!

 

this kind of garbage has been going on since time began, from being a "Nerd" or "Geek" or a "swat" "teachers pet" and so forth...

 

now all they`ve done is change the name AGAIN and played the Color/Race card.

 

Pathetic!

[john5746]

Sorry I don't have much to add, but the the book "Black Like Me" it tells about how those blacks who became successful were seen as traitors to the black community (of couse this was in the early 60's I beleive).

 

There still is some of that. If you are black and a Republican or have a white collar job and move Uptown, you are a traitor. If you are a rapper, athlete or movie star, you are gold. Which one do you pick to emulate if you are a kid - the traitor or the star?

[Douglas]

There still is some of that. If you are black and a Republican or have a white collar job and move Uptown, you are a traitor. If you are a rapper, athlete or movie star, you are gold. Which one do you pick to emulate if you are a kid - the traitor or the star?

Yeah John, currently there's a Black republican, Lt. Gov. Michael S. Steele, who's running for the US senate. Seems like he's fair game for critisizing, demonizing, ostracizing, uncle tom-izing by the black liberal democrats and a few whites.

 

It's the same shit as what the school kids are doing, 'cept it's been done by adults.

[swansont]

To the extent that there is a community of blacks - or anybody, really - who feel this way, all I can say is, "You'll get what you deserve." One part of the failure is not having the value instilled in them of getting a good education, and that seems to be a cultural failure. Except that I strongly suspect the folks who feel this way, when they wake up in 20 years and realize thay have no education and as a result, a crappy job, they will blame it on being screwed by the system, rather than on the person in the mirror. They made a choice. Clinging to a cultural ideal of willful ignorance - if you can call that an ideal - or chucking it because the system in place rewards hard work, thinking skills and intelligence.

[Douglas]

To the extent that there is a community of blacks - or anybody, really - who feel this way, all I can say is, "You'll get what you deserve." One part of the failure is not having the value instilled in them of getting a good education, and that seems to be a cultural failure. Except that I strongly suspect the folks who feel this way, when they wake up in 20 years and realize thay have no education and as a result, a crappy job, they will blame it on being screwed by the system[/b'], rather than on the person in the mirror. They made a choice. Clinging to a cultural ideal of willful ignorance - if you can call that an ideal - or chucking it because the system in place rewards hard work, thinking skills and intelligence.

Absolutely, and who's teaching them this stuff (acting white) ? It's not the whites, and it not Bill Cosby and the blacks on his team.

 

It's been 40 years now.

 

Or screwed by the Republicans

[H W Copeland]

It is a sad state of affaires and contributes mightily to the problems of race that we still have in America.

 

My personal view is that the Jesse Jacksons and the Al Sharptons in America are the worst thing that could have happened to black Americans. If more black people emulated the Bill Cosbys and the Clarence Thomases and the Colin Powells and the Condi Rices in America, rather than the bad boy rappers and the street corner crack dealers this social inequity would be greatly reduced and probably eliminated within a couple of generations.

 

Even Farrakahan is to be preferred over Jackson and co. because he at least preaches a doctrin of self reliance and fathering the children that one sires. He may be a little off-the-wall in his conspiract theories, but if more blacks did as he preaches, it wouldn't be long before true racial equality would be achieved--something that would be of great value to us all.....

[Pangloss]

Heh, that's interesting, I didn't know that about Farrakhan.

[john5746]

My personal view is that the Jesse Jacksons and the Al Sharptons in America are the worst thing that could have happened to black Americans. If more black people emulated the Bill Cosbys and the Clarence Thomases and the Colin Powells and the Condi Rices in America' date=' rather than the bad boy rappers and the street corner crack dealers this social inequity would be greatly reduced and probably eliminated within a couple of generations.

 

Even Farrakahan is to be preferred over Jackson and co. because he at least preaches a doctrin of self reliance and fathering the children that one sires. He may be a little off-the-wall in his conspiract theories, but if more blacks did as he preaches, it wouldn't be long before true racial equality would be achieved--something that would be of great value to us all.....[/quote']

 

Maybe following the morals of Farrakhan's faith would be Ok, but he preaches hate between the lines. He is very dangerous. If he got real power, he would make the uprisings in France look tame.

 

There are democrat African Americans to emulate also.

 

It would be nice if ALL children would emulate someone of good character

[SorceressPol]

This topic brings up lovely memories. When I moved to a mostly black elementary school in Georgia from Spokane Washington, I experienced a lot of this. I was raised in a military family so I was also very proper. I was refered to as 'White Chocolate', and asked several times if I was confused about what color I was supposed to be. Unlike some previous advice in earlier posts, I didn't recognize how they were puting their own deficiencies on me and simply ignore them. I learned how to curse like a sailor, constantly started fights, and by doing this they left me alone. By giving in to them I lost a lot of confidence, and it took me a very long time to gain it back. Today, I do see many more blacks who don't view achieving a better education as 'acting white', and understand this is the best way to further their child's potential.