Antigravity Lifters

[blike]

Take a look at this site. There was a big controversy on slashdot over whether that was truly an antigravity device.

 

Lifter technology is a new type of field-effect propulsion technology that provides thrust without expelling mass. It is based on ion-drive and Biefeld-Brown effect propulsion technology, and uses only electricity to produce thrust.

 

Another site I found is americanantigravity

[aman]

They never show if there would be a difference in levitation at the poles of the Earth. It still might be a strictly magnetic phenomena related to the Earths field since they can't really get a significant lift out of it.

Thanks blike. Its fascinating stuff:bravo: I'm gonna pass it around.

Just aman:cool:

[blike]

They claim NASA has a patent on the same thing.

[aman]

NASA needs funding. Why aren't they using public relations to broadcast this. Hell, I'd send em a dollar. If it worked. Something is fishy.

Just aman

[Guest Hogslayer]

Originally posted by blike

They claim NASA has a patent on the same thing.

 

Which pretty much condemns the rest of the claims, if you study patent law.

[dudels]

I've *heard* that Hitler funded similar research during his little reign in the late 30s and 40s. Apparently they even had a prototype built.

 

I'm very sceptical over this; however, it would not surprise me considering the other things Hitler funded research into.

[aman]

To bad Hitler was such a turd. If he had been human being he could have continued to push Germany into the future as a decent but incredibly progresive country but he turned it into a pile of shit. For some reason he had the most brilliant minds all in one country, Jewish and other faiths and he threw all that away.

If he hadn't been such an ass we might be floating around in traffic instead of rolling.

Just aman

[dudels]

As a politician I think Hitler was one of the best.

 

As a human, however, I agree with you.

[aman]

I don't understand why the power of the US isn't more focused on a few of the really great problems. We really can do anything with devoted great minds and proper funding and support.

But NOOOoooooo. We just keep putting fingers in the leaks of a big wall instead of building a new one. We're running out of fingers and everybodies getting wet.

Just aman

[Guest CJ]

The nasa patent means shit:

 

a) I made the exact same "method" prior to their patent all be it crude, yet I have it documented and signed by witnesses. Yet im still a student so I cant do fuck all about it.

 

b) On nasa's standard email replay they quote TT Brown as a reference to the original idea, yet they dont on reference it on the patent apparently. Who wants money for licencing a technology that is now public domain hmmm?? (ie TT Browns patents have expired)

[aman]

Howdy CJ,

It's sounds like you have some personal experience in the technology. Does it sound feasable to you? Just curious

And nice to meet you.

Just aman

[Guest CJ]

Hi,

 

Well lets start by saying im an elertical eng student, and yes I have played around with the technology for some time. And have my own methods. You may find shit out there on the internet about it but it is usualy joined in with the wierd freak crap like ufo's and other bs.

 

Yeah well the technology is not bullshit, well they call it antigravity but it is on par with a chemical rocket. You may also call that antigravity.

I think this part about it is more interesting is that is a near direct electricity to movement technique. The probem is that its performance is pathetic really. No design "as yet" can can give thrust to more than a few tens of grams. So its pretty inefficient.

 

Still its quite a spectcular demonstration experiment.

 

That nasa patent of 2001 or 2002 the assymetical capacitor thruster, I came up with before them using a modified beer can and some PE foam. Bastards

 

CJ

[aman]

The old anti-gravity beer can trick. The longer you hold it the lighter it gets. Especially cold ones.

I've been making beer cans lighter for years. It's expensive technology.

Just aman:cool2: :cool2:

[fafalone]

That's a trick us college students know extremely well

[aman]

Fafalone, there's hope for you yet even though I haven't figured out how to transport a group to Egypt Yet. Still working on it but I'm old and I'm Slow. Try a trial trip to Palanque, Mexico before you get your MD. Put it on your resume that you escaped from a Mexican jail.

Back to this anti gravity patent, it sounds like it might take an enourmous amount of energy to be more than diddly and the energy would fry anything near it to be usefully functional.

Might even make the last sip of beer really warm. I hate that.

Just aman

[Martin]

the "lifter" effect is apparently real

 

what I have seen says it works with EITHER POLARITY

the direction of the force is not determined by the polarity of the voltage (seems odd, but anyway)

 

An Army Tech Report indicates the force is determined by geometry---by asymmetry of the capacitor.

http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0211001

Force on an Asymmetric Capacitor

Thomas B. Bahder, Chris Fazi

25 pages, new version has corrections of typos and wording, and additional references added. This version is to be published as an Army Research Laboratory Technical Report (in press, March 2003)

Army Research Laboratory Tech Report No. ARL-TR-3005, June 2003

 

"When a high voltage (~30 kV) is applied to a capacitor whose electrodes have different physical dimensions, the capacitor experiences a net force toward the smaller electrode (Biefeld-Brown effect). We have verified this effect by building four capacitors of different shapes. The effect may have applications to vehicle propulsion and dielectric pumps. We review the history of this effect briefly through the history of patents by Thomas Townsend Brown. At present, the physical basis for the Biefeld-Brown effect is not understood. The order of magnitude of the net force on the asymmetric capacitor is estimated assuming two different mechanisms of charge conduction between its electrodes: ballistic ionic wind and ionic drift. The calculations indicate that ionic wind is at least three orders of magnitude too small to explain the magnitude of the observed force on the capacitor. The ionic drift transport assumption leads to the correct order of magnitude for the force, however, it is difficult to see how ionic drift enters into the theory. Finally, we present a detailed thermodynamic treatment of the net force on an asymmetric capacitor. In the future, to understand this effect, a detailed theoretical model must be constructed that takes into account plasma effects: ionization of gas (or air) in the high electric field region, charge transport, and resulting dynamic forces on the electrodes. The next series of experiments should determine whether the effect occurs in vacuum, and a careful study should be carried out to determine the dependence of the observed force on gas pressure, gas species and applied voltage."

 

=======================

 

here is a kind of update on Blike's original post

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/logbook/index.htm

(to date 329 successful demonstrations have been registered at the site. the experimenter's logs are available for inspection)

this site has numerous photographs of charged capacitors floating in the air, being admired by the pleased experimenters.

 

 

The "lifter effect" has been discussed in several SFN threads. For example here is an earlier response from swansont on another thread about this effect

http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=49856&postcount=7

 

I may have missed something and could be in error about the direction of force depending on the geometry and not on the polarity.

 

any comment?

======================

 

OH THE MAIN POINT OF THE POST! I FORGOT TO SAY IT EXPLICITLY. I believe that i do not understand this effect. I have some ideas (from the Army Tech Report and other sources) but I am not sure any of my possible explanations actually work. So for me, this is in the unexplained category. maybe someone can explain it?

[Rocket Man]

i've seen the capacitor-motion idea being used with relation to the philedelphia experiment (the wierd one with the ship)

apparently the guy who first discovered it said it was caused by a high voltage across a dielectric, he said that the stronger the insulative properties, the stronger the force.

 

is this the one with the "gravitophotons"? you might find it via google and "heim theory" i've seen some papers but dont get the math.

[Martin]

Regret to say I cant help out with those things Rocket Man.

 

Also here is my intuitive feeling about this "lifter effect"

 

AFAIK it has not been explained

but I expect that it WILL be explained using existing known physics and it will turn out to be a simple effect caused by well-understood principles.

 

Also i expect it will turn out to have zero or neglible practical value.

 

but that is merely my HUNCH. which could well be wrong.

 

so I am interested to hear what explanations people can come up with.

I suspect that the "lifter" force would NOT OCCUR IN VACUUM but I did not yet here if anybody tried.

 

I was interested to read that the lift force is STRONGER IF THE small upper member is made POSITIVE, than if it is made negative.

 

(this is hearsay, it is mentioned in that Tech Report but I dont know if they confirmed it)

 

but regardless of polarity the lift force is always in the direction of the small upper member (typically a horizontal wire, while the lower member is a triangular foil wall.)

 

anyway it is a cool thing and I am glad that we have a thread or threads about it

[YT2095]

Hmm... apparently the lifing effect is greater with pulsed DC, I have a 36Kv generator that outputs at DC (not pulsed) across a 4500pf capacitor matrix.

 

I have simply Gotta build me one of those!

 

the only thing that concerns me is the arcing that occurs, 3 inch arcs are typical and I have no way to turn down the power, I wonder if these things can be scaled up somewhat?

 

I`ve not read all the material about this yet, but I wonder if inverted they will exert a Downwards force also?

that would exclude anti-Gravity I should imagine, and the Vacuum idea would certainly be worth testing too!

[Rocket Man]

pulsed dc, use a relay if you can find one big enough.

is your 36kv generator using a transormer/rectifier or is it a charge pump?

you might acheive something by reducing the input voltage.

i think 36kv might be a baseline voltage.

if its current your worried about, get some 4w resistors.

 

just a question about the construction. is the lower electrode grounded?

the pictures dont have enough res to show the wires.

[bascule]

AFAIK it has not been explained

but I expect that it WILL be explained using existing known physics and it will turn out to be a simple effect caused by well-understood principles.

 

AFAIK it has been explained as the "ionic wind" effect (the kind those crappy "Ionic Breeze" air purifiers/unintentional ozonators use). NASA stuck one of them in a vacuum, turned on the juice, and... nothing.

[alt_f13]

AFAIK it has been explained as the "ionic wind" effect (the kind those crappy "Ionic Breeze" air purifiers/unintentional ozonators use). NASA stuck one of them in a vacuum, turned on the juice, and... nothing.

 

I thought martin explained that the ionic wind effect calculated is too small to actually lift the sized lifter that it comes from, as explained by that Test Report...?

 

Hmm... apparently the lifing effect is greater with pulsed DC' date=' I have a 36Kv generator that outputs at DC (not pulsed) across a 4500pf capacitor matrix.

 

I have simply Gotta build me one of those!

 

the only thing that concerns me is the arcing that occurs, 3 inch arcs are typical and I have no way to turn down the power, I wonder if these things can be scaled up somewhat?

 

I`ve not read all the material about this yet, but I wonder if inverted they will exert a Downwards force also?

that would exclude anti-Gravity I should imagine, and the Vacuum idea would certainly be worth testing too![/quote']

 

Maybe you should make the first inverted one! It wouldn't be that hard to suspend one from little springs.

 

They sure do look like flying saucers though. Maybe that's why UFOs all seem to be made of tinfoil.

[YT2095]

the 36kv is a 10 stage Cocroft Walton voltage multiplier, fed 3.6kv at roughly 16KHz.

the output from this CW goes through a Diode array (in sleaving) to charge a Capacitor matrix rated at 44.1Kv at 4500pF.

 

it`s not grounded at all really, the output`s actualy -36Kv in relation to ground. my 5Kv CW is +5Kv in relation.

 

as for it being ionic wind, wasn`t that discounted in one of those links as being insuficient to create the lift?

I`m pretty sure I read that.

[Rocket Man]

a cocroft walton mux is relatively simple to get a lower voltage out of. if you can, find a junction lower down on the ladder and divert the stabilising circuits to there. the diode array is VERY important, inductive kickback will FRY anything! the cap matrix is just to smooth out the oscillations under high load.

 

grounding is unneccesary for this i think, try it, if it doesnt work you can rig your CW to ground, depending how you CW is set up you can link one of the HV lines to ground.

 

if the 3.6kv is from a transformer, you can run a step down transformer before it.

 

do you think the lifters will run on static electricity? foil over a CRT delivers a fair bit of juice, enough to spin a ion wind rotor.

[YT2095]

well all my HT kit is "homemade" and although tapping of the charge side of the caps would be the ideal, it`s not possible as the whole unit is laquered and sealed, the CW VMX is a sealed unit now.

each of the 20 caps is 6.3Kv rated, so perhaps I`ll drive it directly off the mains, although I recon 36Kv will be ok to use, I notice that when I fire it up the air makes a Roaring sound and there`s millions of almost invisible blue arcs trying to find the other terminal, and it will actualy Push the wire away from it and make it jump when it Does arc over, there`s a very load Bang when this happens so maybe it`s just Air expanding making a shockwave that pushes the wire?

 

the power will blow things away from it, dust, liquids, it`s really fascinating to watch or chase these things around the table