Ego and Id

[ashennell]

As I understand it the concepts of the Ego and Id were introduced by Freud. These terms have croped up on a number of threads in both the psychology and neuroscience forums here recently. To what extent are these concepts actually used in modern cognitive psychology? Are they used by phychiatrists? Is there any value in their use at all?

 

I was under the impression that they were basically outdated.

[YT2095]

AFAIK, they`re still taught and indeed used, and not at all "outdated" per se.

 

Glider is the one to ask about this, what he can`t tell you in this area, simply isn`t worth knowing!

 

I`ll close this thread for you if you like, and he`ll probably see this in the early morning before work, and reply

[gib65]

I think any of the basic psychoanalytic terms like "ego" and "id" are only good/useful insofar as they describe the inner workings of the mind. That being said, I think a distinction has to be made between describing how mental processes feel and what's actually going on. If you want to know what's actually going on, I don't think you'll get very far with psychoanalysis. I think you'd be better off talking about neurology or physiology. The mind is best described in subjective terms, which means the way it feels is really all there is to be said about it, and therefore concepts like the "ego" or "id" are only as good/useful as they are accurate in describing how the mind feels.

[BobbyJoeCool]

the concept of ego and id (and superego), is mainly used in pop psychology. If you pick up a book on psychology that isn't a textbook, Freud and Jung are going to be the classical thing that they will deal with.

 

Why? Because Freud is fun! The battle of the id and the superego, with the ego moderating! The oral, anal, genital... stages of development. People find this interesting, and that's why it's in pop psychology. It's more interesting to learn about than Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs or Erikson's stages of development... And you don't have to have ANY background in psychology to understand Freud. Freud is lehman's terms.

 

However, they are still used in psychoanalysis... some... but it's mainly in pop psychology...

[ashennell]

However, they are still used in psychoanalysis... some... but it's mainly in pop psychology...

 

This is kind of the view that I had. I have only one cognitive psychology textbook but they are not even mentioned in passing.

 

Models are usefuls tools in any area of science but if a model is known to be over-simplified or innacurate then its use should be discouraged.

[sunspot]

There is probably a grain of truth in these early models. It is something the average person can understand. More advanced models start to go outside the range of the average person. This may mean the models get too deep or they miss the mark because they are no longer intuitive. Simplicity is often closer to the truth complexity is for the experts.

 

The way I understand it, the ego is center of the conscious mind, the Id is the personal unconscious and the super ego is cultural programming which impacts both the ego and Id. Jung goes further and says there is a deeper collective layer of the unconscious mind called the collective unconscious. This is genetically programmed and what makes humans human, independant of culture or time in history. Whether one is German, American, or ancient Greek falling is love is basically the same for all human and is based on an archetype of the collective unconscious. The ego, Id and superego will influence the gifts and the social constraints but the falling in love is timeless human.

[Callipygous]

The battle of the id and the superego, with the ego moderating!

 

isnt that the other way around? id and ego, with superego moderating?

O.o

[BobbyJoeCool]

isnt that the other way around? id and ego, with superego moderating?

 

no. The id is the "little kid" or little devil that wants intsant gratification, and doesn't care about ramifications. The superego is the ethical or moral part of you (that knows that almost everything the id wants is wrong), and the ego trys to keep both "happy."

 

Wiki! Ego, Superego and Id.

[BobbyJoeCool]

The way I understand it, the ego is center of the conscious mind, the Id is the personal unconscious and the super ego is cultural programming which impacts both the ego and Id.

 

Well, yes and no. The ego is the center of personality... your id is your desires and wants, and the superego is your sence of right and wrong. Your ego decides which one to listen to in any given situation... but the superego doesn't impact the id in the slightest... the superego AND the id impact the ego, which eventually makes a decision (which, if possible, satifies both id and superego at the same time).

 

I wouldn't say "cultural programming." Ethic and moral standards can be cultutal, but it's really more of a personal thing... Like what's right to one person is different from what's right to another... your superego is what is right to YOU... it's something else that would keep you from say, raping and/or killing someone if you didn't think it was wrong (like say revenge...) but your id is also what YOU want... YOUR desires... some people have an id that wants almost nothing (selfless) and others a superego that society would deem to be "bad."

 

At any rate, out of my psychology textbook...

 

Id: A reservoir of unconscious psychic energy that strives to satisfy basic sexual and aggressive drives. The id operates on the "pleasure principle," demanding immediate satisfaction.

 

Ego: The largely conscious "executive" part of personality that mediates among the demands of the id, superego, and reality. Operates on the "reality principle," satisfying the id in ways that will that will realistically bring pleasure rather than pain.

 

Superego: Represents internalized ideals and provides standards for judgment (the conscience) and for future aspirations.

 

 

does that clear things up for you?

 

EDIT: Id, Ego and Superego are Frued... what Jung says is his, and not really Id, Ego and Superego (as what he explains is different parts of each of those...)

[sunspot]

I agree with you in the sense that this is the classical explanation but in practical reality there are many acceptions. For example, if the superego of culture was the philosophy of Nazi germany during WWII, right and wrong becomes relative. The ego and the Id will now be able to team up. What is tradtionally thought of as the natural desire impulses of the Id would now be programmed with ununatural superego input that is reinforced by the ego. It is easy to corrupt natural instinct with unnatural superego and ego programming. Modern American culture is not based on purely moral law, it is watered down with the desire needs of Capitalism. It is right to maximized profits even if it means cutting jobs.

 

The pleasure principle of the Id sounds appropriate to the life of a person of means and time, like Freud. The average person without means and time is more motivated by fear and hunger than desire. Desire/pleasure is more directed by culture to escape the anxiety of a difficult life. It also maximizes profits for those who can pursue pleasure/desire.

 

Jung could better accommodate the norm instead of the upper class ideal. The Id appears to be a combination of the shadow of the ego (superego and ego modification within personal memory) and the archetypes of the collective unconscious. These are also modified by the ego and superego from their natural states to create collective compulsions. They represent the range of human instinctive and/or emotional potentials and are not limited to desire/pleasure.

[Callipygous]

no. The id is the "little kid" or little devil that wants intsant gratification' date=' and doesn't care about ramifications. The superego is the ethical or moral part of you (that knows that almost everything the id wants is wrong), and the ego trys to keep both "happy."

 

Wiki! Ego, Superego and Id.

 

 

strange.... thats not at all what i was taught. although i always did think that teacher was a little too full of himself.... maybe he was wrong : P

[BobbyJoeCool]

I agree with you in the sense that this is the classical explanation but in practical reality there are many acceptions. For example' date=' if the superego of culture was the philosophy of Nazi germany during WWII, right and wrong becomes relative. The ego and the Id will now be able to team up. What is tradtionally thought of as the natural desire impulses of the Id would now be programmed with ununatural superego input that is reinforced by the ego. It is easy to corrupt natural instinct with unnatural superego and ego programming. Modern American culture is not based on purely moral law, it is watered down with the desire needs of Capitalism. It is right to maximized profits even if it means cutting jobs.

 

The pleasure principle of the Id sounds appropriate to the life of a person of means and time, like Freud. The average person without means and time is more motivated by fear and hunger than desire. Desire/pleasure is more directed by culture to escape the anxiety of a difficult life. It also maximizes profits for those who can pursue pleasure/desire.

 

Jung could better accommodate the norm instead of the upper class ideal. The Id appears to be a combination of the shadow of the ego (superego and ego modification within personal memory) and the archetypes of the collective unconscious. These are also modified by the ego and superego from their natural states to create collective compulsions. They represent the range of human instinctive and/or emotional potentials and are not limited to desire/pleasure.[/quote']

 

Except that it was just a way of explaining what happens in terms that common men/women could understand. The id and superego have nothing to do with what "society" deems right and wrong, they're what YOU deem right an wrong. What you feel is right and wrong can be influenced by society; but it doesn't control it completly. For instance, Running around naked is wrong: why? Because society says so (you get arrested for indecent exposure). But what about things that aren't illegal/"wrong" according to society. Drinking, Smoking, Sex, TV, Procrastination, eating meat, going to church etc... your superego might tell you that those things were right or wrong, it depended on the person... The thing is that it realizes what will get you in trouble, and tries to keep you out of it... The case of Germany with the Nazis... It was deemed "wrong" by the Nazis to be Jewish. So, people who didn't want to be chased down by the Gestapo would not like Jewish people. Their superego has been influenced by the society they live in...

 

EDIT: As a side note, right and wrong are ALWAYS realitive... That's what YOUR superego is... YOUR sence of right and wrong...

[sunspot]

Right and wrong are often viewed as relative but there should be absolutes of right and wrong based on natural human nature. In other words, a wild animal acts on instinct and survives by being true to its inner workings. Humans can supercede or subcede what is natural within themselves. One can not depend on the superego for natural behavior since there are too many hidden agendas. The relative nature of right and wrong allows both progressive and regressive behavior to exist side-by-side within the indivudal. That which is regressive and unnatural sets a potential with what is progressive and natural. This potential is expressed by the shadow and archetypes. The natural archetypes are at the core and the shadowy archetypes are at the perimeter slightly below the ego and periodically overlap the range of ego consciousness.

[Cognition]

The Ego and the Id were introduced to Psychology by Freud and he tried to explain the "abnormal" Mind with it. Cognitive Psychology is not about the abnormal mind, but it is about the cognition and the cognitive system where you find processes such as memory, learning and thinking. That is why you will not find the ego and the Id within cognitive psychology, but in clinical psychology

[Glider]

You won't find them in clinical psychology either. You may still find them used allegorically by Freudian Psychoanalytic therapists, but they are from a different area of psychology. Psychologists who work with clinical populations, e.g. clinical psychologists and health psychologists, have to use workable models.