Katrina Whiners

[Pangloss]

I swear if I hear one more story about a family being kicked out of their expensive hotel rooms or otherwise "re-victimized" I'm gonna barf up a lung. What have these people been DOING for the last few months, aside from sitting around waiting for handout after handout?

 

One idiot on ABC News last night actually had the hutzpa to stand there in her Residence Inn suite (which I paid for) with her children eating dinner behind her (which I paid for), sporting a closet full of new clothing (which I paid for), and scream into the cameras, "They keep saying that we're going to get some help, but it NEVER COMES!"

 

(sigh)

 

That having been said, I know there are some folks down there who have been validly and understandably extra-harmed by various circumstances, including FEMA mistakes, price-gouging and insurance fraud, and I have no problem with those folks getting a little more time and assistance to get back on their feet.

 

But there are two other aspects of this that really irk me, and suggest that some hard-love governance is in order:

 

- New Orleans is BEGGING for labor. They cannot get enough of it. Illegal immigrants are shipping in by the truckload to take HIGH paying jobs that former residents REFUSE to move back for. (Easier to sit on your bum and beg for another free $2,000 debit card?)

 

-In the areas (mainly Texas and Georgia) where large numbers of New Orleans poor were shipped after the hurricane, the crime rates have SKYROCKETED. What a nice way to repay your hosts!

 

I know the latter is a bit of a straw man -- obviously not everyone there is a criminal, and a few bad apples are making the rest look bad. But you KNOW that's gonna have an impact.

 

I have an uncle who lives in Louisiana who was saying that he felt it may be the best thing that ever happened to both the city and to those people, over the long haul. The horrendous crime rate of New Orleans has now been spread out, which means it can actually be dealt with more effectively now, by non-corrupt law enforcement units all over the country.

 

And perhaps more to the point, many (if not all) of the communities these refugees (and let's face it, anybody still on the dole at this point IS a "refugee") were shipped to, unlike New Orleans and Louisiana, do NOT have large state welfare programs that you can get by on from generation to generation. They'll HAVE to go back to work. They just won't have any choice. (That's probably one of the reasons they're pestering the federal government so hard.)

 

Thoughts?

[Douglas]

I swear if I hear one more story about a family being kicked out of their expensive hotel rooms or otherwise "re-victimized[/b']" I'm gonna barf up a lung.

Gotta keep them there Pangloss, Bush can't afford any more victims till after next November.

 

, "They keep saying that we're going to get some help, but it NEVER COMES!"

Good fodder for a democrat commercial in '06......Bush kicks them when they're down.

 

New Orleans is BEGGING for labor. They cannot get enough of it. Illegal immigrants are shipping in by the truckload to take HIGH paying jobs that former residents REFUSE to move back for. (Easier to sit on your bum and beg for another free $2,000 debit card?)

Remember what Vincente Fox said........

[Pangloss]

(chuckle) You're incorrigible.

 

Sorry, not getting the Fox reference....

[Douglas]

(chuckle) You're incorrigible.

 

Sorry' date=' not getting the Fox reference....[/quote']He (Fox) was admonished by Jesse and Al for saying that "Mexicans will do jobs that even................

[In My Memory]

Pangloss,

One idiot on ABC News last night actually had the hutzpa to stand there in her Residence Inn suite (which I paid for) with her children eating dinner behind her (which I paid for)' date=' sporting a closet full of new clothing (which I paid for), and scream into the cameras, "They keep saying that we're going to get some help, but it NEVER COMES!"

 

(sigh)[/quote']

 

Sure, its shortsighted that the woman claimed she hadnt been helped, but I think its really insensitive to say that she shouldnt be helped at all (I dont mean to put words in your mouth, but I'm not sure what else to make out of your emphasis that your money goes to disaster relief unless believe they shouldnt be helped).

 

- New Orleans is BEGGING for labor. They cannot get enough of it. Illegal immigrants are shipping in by the truckload to take HIGH paying jobs that former residents REFUSE to move back for. (Easier to sit on your bum and beg for another free $2,000 debit card?)

It would be easier for these former residents to move back if they had a home to move back to.

 

I'm interested to know where you got your information from that these people dont want to take jobs. After that, I'd also be interested to know what kind of high-paying jobs are available. At the moment, I cant really think of anything outside of stringing up electrical lines, mechanics, masonry, and hospital work that would qualify as "high paying", but these kinds of jobs obviously arent available to anyone who doesnt have the technical expertise. The other kinds of jobs available require a lot of physical labor, where its likely people work long hours for low pay, and that kind of work that might be unavailable to some men, most women, and teenagers.

 

I think maybe you think its too easy for these to get a job when it really isnt.

 

I have an uncle who lives in Louisiana who was saying that he felt it may be the best thing that ever happened to both the city and to those people, over the long haul. The horrendous crime rate of New Orleans has now been spread out, which means it can actually be dealt with more effectively now, by non-corrupt law enforcement units all over the country.

This is one of the most heartless things I've ever heard. Its like your uncle is celebrating the deaths of 1000+ and happy that 28000 families lost their homes, like he really believes that each and everyone of these people got what they deserved?

 

The worst part is that your uncle tries to justify this by pointing out the crime rate, but that isnt true. The crime rate after Katrina was sensationalized and vastly overblown, see http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9503449/ . So, the comment doesnt have any justification, its just cruel.

 

And Pangloss, I think you of all people should recognize that the citizens of New Orleans are still citizens, and they deserve at least a heated room and a place to sleep as much as anyone else. To gloss over this by calling it a "government handout" when these people have no homes to back to misses the point - these people are disaster victicms, and as soon as they are evicted, they are officially homeless. I have never heard in my entire life disaster relief called a "government handout".

[Pangloss]

Sure, its shortsighted that the woman claimed she hadnt been helped, but I think its really insensitive to say that she shouldnt be helped at all (I dont mean to put words in your mouth, but I'm not sure what else to make out of your emphasis that your money goes to disaster relief unless believe they shouldnt be helped).

 

Well fortunately I didn't say that.

 

But I can tell you this: The reason I didn't say "she shouldn't be helped at all" has nothing to do with whether or not it's insensitive.

 

 

It would be easier for these former residents to move back if they had a home to move back to.

 

The people who are going there to do the labor don't seem to be having any trouble finding places to stay.

 

 

I'm interested to know where you got your information from that these people dont want to take jobs. After that, I'd also be interested to know what kind of high-paying jobs are available. At the moment, I cant really think of anything outside of stringing up electrical lines, mechanics, masonry, and hospital work that would qualify as "high paying", but these kinds of jobs obviously arent available to anyone who doesnt have the technical expertise. The other kinds of jobs available require a lot of physical labor, where its likely people work long hours for low pay, and that kind of work that might be unavailable to some men, most women, and teenagers.

 

Um, hello, it's manual labor, not skilled work, being taken by people who just skipped in across the border from Mexico. What's wrong with that kind of work, IMM? Surely beggars can't be choosers. We're talking about people who lived off the public dole. Should they really be picky about what kind of work is available, when they're presently living off money taken from me by force?

 

 

I think maybe you think its too easy for these to get a job when it really isnt.

 

Prove it. Last time I checked we had virtually full employment in this country. Apparently a job is so "hard to find" in this country that the unemployment numbers have been dropping in spite of half a million jobs lost due to Katrina, and there are now more people working than is statistically possible after you account for maternity leaves, temporary unemployment (like people who got fired), etc. Nothing unusual about that -- statistics are only so accurate. It just means that we really don't *have* any unemployment in this country.

 

 

This is one of the most heartless things I've ever heard. Its like your uncle is celebrating the deaths of 1000+ and happy that 28000 families lost their homes, like he really believes that each and everyone of these people got what they deserved?

 

This is one of the most ideological things I've ever seen you post.

 

Because he's talking about the bright side of an otherwise horrible affair, you're accusing him of celebrating death and dislocation? Come on, get off the bandwagon and stop making ridiculous assumptions just because you don't like someone's political leanings.

 

Has someone kidnapped your keyboard, IMM?!

[Pangloss]

Let me back up a statement you erroneously denied in the above post, and a question that you asked me, IMM:

 

1) Has the spreading out of Katrina victims been reflected in the crime rates of post-Katrina New Orleans and in the cities that took in her refugees?

IMM: "That isn't true."

Pangloss: Yes it is.

 

"Nature's Crime Fighter: Hurricane Katrina" (From the NEW YORK TIMES!)

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/10/news/crime.php

(It's a reprint from a Times article, which is now on pay-only basis at the Times web site, which is why I linked it from there instead.)

 

And here is an ABC News story about how crime has moved to other cities following the refugees from New Orleans:

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1320056

That article explicitly reports the rise in crime in Houston and Atlanta in areas populated by Katrina victims.

 

In contrast, the article that YOU linked actually talked about a completely different subject: Crime incidents that took place immediately following Katrina. I agree, those were ridiculously overblown. But that has nothing to do with the subject *I* was talking about, which was comparing the pre-Katrina New Orleans crime rate with the current crime rate and in the places where New Orleans refugees ended up.

 

2) Your question: "I'm interested to know where you got your information from that these people dont want to take jobs."

 

There have been *numerous* stories on this issue over *months* now. The mayor of New Orleans raised eyebrows recently in talking about how his city was "overrun by Mexican workers". I guess he doesn't agree with you either about the housing situation, the types of jobs, or whether they're too good for that sort of work, huh?

 

Anyway, here is your answer:

 

"Illegal immigrants take many reconstruction jobs in New Orleans"

http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-11-10-voa80.cfm

 

The work immigrants do in New Orleans is dirty, difficult, and sometimes dangerous, but the pay is good. Roofers can make $300 a day in New Orleans and many construction jobs pay $15 to $17 an hour.

 

Holy cow!

 

But instead of saying "OH MY GOD HOW FAST CAN I POSSIBLY GET DOWN THERE?!?!?!?!!" instead they sit on their asses in Residence Inns in Atlanta in Houston. AND COMPLAIN THAT THEY'RE NOT GETTING ENOUGH HELP!

 

Now I have backed up what I've said, and I have made my prima facie case. I think you owe me an apology for deliberately demonizing and mischaracterizing my words.

[Douglas]

 

Pangloss says......................

New Orleans is BEGGING for labor. They cannot get enough of it. Illegal immigrants are shipping in by the truckload to take HIGH paying jobs that former residents REFUSE to move back for. (Easier to sit on your bum and beg for another free $2' date='000 debit card?) [/quote']

 

IMM says

It would be easier for these former residents to move back if they had a home to move back to.

 

Would you have these former residents stay at the Residence Inn in Atlanta, till the Residence Inn in New Orleans is ready, then come back and get a job?

[cosine]

I swear if I hear one more story about a family being kicked out of their expensive hotel rooms or otherwise "re-victimized" I'm gonna barf up a lung. What have these people been DOING for the last few months' date=' aside from sitting around waiting for handout after handout?

 

One idiot on ABC News last night actually had the hutzpa to stand there in her Residence Inn suite (which I paid for) with her children eating dinner behind her (which I paid for), sporting a closet full of new clothing (which I paid for), and scream into the cameras, "They keep saying that we're going to get some help, but it NEVER COMES!"

 

(sigh)

 

That having been said, I know there are some folks down there who have been validly and understandably extra-harmed by various circumstances, including FEMA mistakes, price-gouging and insurance fraud, and I have no problem with those folks getting a little more time and assistance to get back on their feet.

 

But there are two other aspects of this that really irk me, and suggest that some hard-love governance is in order:

 

- New Orleans is BEGGING for labor. They cannot get enough of it. Illegal immigrants are shipping in by the truckload to take HIGH paying jobs that former residents REFUSE to move back for. (Easier to sit on your bum and beg for another free $2,000 debit card?)

 

-In the areas (mainly Texas and Georgia) where large numbers of New Orleans poor were shipped after the hurricane, the crime rates have SKYROCKETED. What a nice way to repay your hosts!

 

I know the latter is a bit of a straw man -- obviously not everyone there is a criminal, and a few bad apples are making the rest look bad. But you KNOW that's gonna have an impact.

 

I have an uncle who lives in Louisiana who was saying that he felt it may be the best thing that ever happened to both the city and to those people, over the long haul. The horrendous crime rate of New Orleans has now been spread out, which means it can actually be dealt with more effectively now, by non-corrupt law enforcement units all over the country.

 

And perhaps more to the point, many (if not all) of the communities these refugees (and let's face it, anybody still on the dole at this point IS a "refugee") were shipped to, unlike New Orleans and Louisiana, do NOT have large state welfare programs that you can get by on from generation to generation. They'll HAVE to go back to work. They just won't have any choice. (That's probably one of the reasons they're pestering the federal government so hard.)

 

Thoughts?[/quote']

 

I hate to shoot you with this, but I can't believe its as easy as you think it is without you backing it up with a study on getting back on your feet in New Orleans. Its a tough study, if you REALLY wanted to do it on you own, its feasible. I had to do a study where I was a 24 year old single parent with a 4 year old kid and only a high school diploma I got 6 years ago, with no applicable work experience. I had to find a job, a place to live, childcare, food, and any other expenses that we would need in order to survive on Long Island. To give you the long and short of it. After working 2 jobs totaling 55 hour work weeks, and after all my absolute neccessities, I netted 10 dollars a month. I was saving up for a sleeping bag for my kid to sleep in.

 

I had the benefit of being on Long Island, not a hurricane torn New Orleans, and I had the added assumptions that I had a month's deposit for rent and that I had a car somehow.

[Pangloss]

Why not simply look at the numbers of Katrina survivors who have already departed from federal disaster relief programs?

 

Does it really matter *how* they managed to get back on their feet? The job is to get them back on their feet, not figure out how best to provide them aid in perpetuity.

[cosine]

Why not simply look at the numbers of Katrina survivors who have already departed from federal disaster relief programs?

 

Does it really matter *how* they managed to get back on their feet? The job is to get them back on their feet' date=' not figure out how best to provide them aid in perpetuity.[/quote']

People come from different backgrouds. Everyone is trying to get out of the situation, but some have more resources to do so than others.

[Pangloss]

Everyone is trying to get out of the situation, but some have more resources to do so than others.

 

It's the first part of that sentence that I'm questioning. I'm not convinced that's the case.

 

The second part of the sentence is something I have no problem with being flexible about.

 

Here's an honest question for you (or anybody else): Do I have a right to know whether they are part of the former group, or the latter?

[cosine]

It's the first part of that sentence that I'm questioning. I'm not convinced that's the case.

 

The second part of the sentence is something I have no problem with being flexible about.

 

Here's an honest question for you (or anybody else): Do I have a right to know whether they are part of the former group' date=' or the latter?[/quote']

 

What two groups are you referring to?

[Pangloss]

The larger group that's trying to get out of the situation, or the smaller group that's not bothering, and/or prefers to sit around on its duff and consume handouts.

[Douglas]

prefers to sit around on its duff and consume handouts.

Pangloss, how insensitive of you. IMO, these loafers require trauma counciling before they can go back to work, perhaps some consultation on how to live when not able to feed at the taxpayers trough.

[In My Memory]

Pangloss,

The people who are going there to do the labor don't seem to be having any trouble finding places to stay.

According to one of your previous sources, they stay in tents and sleeping bags. For all intents and purposes, those immigrants are homeless, and I really dont think it would it would appropriate to force a half million people into tents. I stick with my previous assessment, that would just be cruel.

 

At the moment, I know at least 28000 homes have been destroyed in Katrina, and 350000 in total after the other hurricanes (source) - so, at the very least, unless we give away 350000 free houses, there is no possible way I can think of to return these families back to New Orleans without diminishing them to a seriously low low quality of living.

 

Um' date=' hello, it's manual labor, not skilled work, being taken by people who just skipped in across the border from Mexico. What's wrong with that kind of work, IMM? Surely beggars can't be choosers. We're talking about people who lived off the public dole. Should they really be picky about what kind of work is available, when they're presently living off money taken from me by force?

 

Prove it. Last time I checked we had virtually full employment in this country. Apparently a job is so "hard to find" in this country that the unemployment numbers have been dropping in spite of half a million jobs lost due to Katrina, and there are now more people working [i']than is statistically possible[/i] after you account for maternity leaves, temporary unemployment (like people who got fired), etc. Nothing unusual about that -- statistics are only so accurate. It just means that we really don't *have* any unemployment in this country.

Employment has been weak after Katrina, its impact on jobs all over the US has even been famously named the "Katrina effect", but thats besides the point. I'm not denying that some of the lost jobs after the hurricanes will be filled by former evacuees themselves, but its very unreasonable to expect that all 500000 people should be content to manual labor. Some people are just unfit to do these jobs, like elderly people or teens who used to make a living by waiting tables, some people dont like doing work that might be dangerous. Thats not the same thing as being too good for a job.

 

And what about those US$15 and US$17 roofing jobs that are being taken up by all the illegal aliens? Heres what they are doing: From Chron.com - Hispanics doing much of the cleanup in New Orleans:

Labor investigators say that many of the workers in New Orleans are illegal immigrants who are being exploited and subjected to harsh living and working conditions.

 

An investigator with the Laborers Union, Rafael Duran, said that outside the New Orleans Arena, he had encountered Mexican teenagers perhaps 15 or 16 years old who had been removing excrement-fouled carpets.

 

While some cleanup workers in New Orleans are staying in hotels, Duran said the teenagers on the carpet-removal job told him they were sleeping in a field under a tent, and had gotten bitten by mosquitoes.

In other words, illegal immigrants are working in terrible conditions for low pay, not the dream jobs that everyone wishes they could have.

 

And here is an ABC News story about how crime has moved to other cities following the refugees from New Orleans:

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1320056

That article explicitly reports the rise in crime in Houston and Atlanta in areas populated by Katrina victims.

To use the words of an article which debunks those urban myths' date=' "Everything was embellished, everything was exaggerated"; and another article on various myths about crimes in Atlanta (some are true, some arent). And if you dont mind Wikipedia articles, see Wikipedia - Hurricane Katrina:

The perception that racism played a role in how the victims of Hurricane Katrina are perceived is supported by considerable evidence. Would there have been general acceptance of claims that hundreds of people had been killed in the New Orleans Superdome and Convention Center in the absence of stereotypical views of blacks? (The actual [157] death toll was six people in the Superdome and four in the Convention Center. All but two appear to have died of natural causes.) White supremacy sites on the Internet have used [158] false accounts of violence in New Orleans to attempt to win support for their cause. Some states have conducted criminal background checks on evacuees without their knowledge. The attorney general of Utah claimed that many of the 400-500 evacuees who moved there were violent criminals, including murderers, only to subsequently [159] retract his remarks. Sloppy reporters have also made outrageous claims about the evacuee population and criminality, based on speculation or very small samples of evacuees, such as those remaining in shelters after the passage of a week or more. Citizens in some cities where evacuees moved have [160] purchased guns in reaction to their presence, believing them to be dangerous. There is no reliable evidence that crime levels have increased in places where evacuees relocated. However, some law enforcement personnel believe evacuees are being [161] targeted as victims of crimes because of a perception they have cash or debit cards from FEMA.

And finally, if that isnt enough, see the article from the Houston Chronicle with the salient title Crime epidemic here nothing more than rumors. As usual, stories and urban myths circulate by word of mouth, email, and telephone, but they have no substance.

 

Ignoring everything above, you've said over and over again that all the evacuees are refusing to get jobs at your expense, but I dont think thats true. See USAToday: Evacuees finding jobs far away from New Orleans, it seems like some are resettling in other states, and many want more than anything to find jobs. They dont seem to have any intention of freeloading off of you, nor does it seem like they are going to be doing so indefinitely. That seems to break down the entire foundation of your "prima facie case" that you tried to set up in your opening post.

 

Speaking from personal experience, I'm not in New Orleans, but I did live in Florida for 10 years. Theres been at least one or two times that I've been a hurricane evacuee for weeks, I can tell you first hand that it isnt a fun experience in the least to be living in a small hotel or a recreation center, and its not a vacation to have no job. If the people in New Orleans are like me, the one thing that you want the most is to have a job and pick up where you left off.

 

This is one of the most ideological things I've ever seen you post.

 

Because he's talking about the bright side of an otherwise horrible affair' date=' you're accusing him of celebrating death and dislocation? Come on, get off the bandwagon and stop making ridiculous assumptions just because you don't like someone's political leanings.[/quote']

My apologies if I took him out of context. In light of a thread called "Katrina winers" that complains about all the freeloading disaster evacuees, and qualifying the comment "best thing that ever happened to both the city and to those people" with "[the horrendous crimerate of New Orleans] can actually be dealt with more effectively now, by non-corrupt law enforcement units all over the country", it just looked like the quote was saying that it was a good thing hurricanes came along to punish New Orleans for some reason. But, if I've misread the intent of the comment, then I take back everything I said about it.

 

Of course, I can be a bleeding heart when I want to be, but I'm not ideological. I'd never demonize anything that anyone would say if I didnt have a good reason, so if I think theres a reason to find something heartless like the idea that disaster victims are lazy freeloading bums - especially when its based on more rumor than fact - then I dont feel theres a need for me to apologize. I dont find it impossible that there are jobs in New Orleans or crime in other cities has increased, but its just too easy to let a simple criticism like making a case that the hurricane victims should start a new life spill over into nearly vitriolic (and partisan) chicanery.

[Pangloss]

Those are some valid points, IMM, and I wish you'd posted that way the first time, but I appreciate the refocus on the issues. The only thing I would take issue with above is this: "you've said over and over again that all the evacuees are refusing to get jobs at your expense". I think what I've said clearly here is that SOME evacuees are taking advantage of the system. I think most of them have already departed the rescue/aid system, which tells us a great deal about both the quality of the people of New Orleans (in a good way), and the fact that the people who are left behind are either unwilling or incapable, which I admit can, in SOME cases, be for valid reasons.

 

As I said in the very first post:

 

I know there are some folks down there who have been validly and understandably extra-harmed by various circumstances, including FEMA mistakes, price-gouging and insurance fraud, and I have no problem with those folks getting a little more time and assistance to get back on their feet.

 

Getting to your points, I agree that some of your links are valid counter-arguments to some of my points. What I take out of that is that my criticism may be, to some extent, too severe and simplistic.

 

But in some cases, it may be damn well spot on.

[padren]

Personally freeloaders on my dime don't bother me. I'd rather know some people are getting help they don't deserve at my expense, than know some people who do deserve help aren't getting it because I made a big stink over a few freeloaders.

 

 

Edit:

PS: The people who I would suspect of getting handouts in this case are corporations getting way overpaid by the government for the services rendered. And they aren't even hard up for cash.

[cosine]

Personally freeloaders on my dime don't bother me. I'd rather know some people are getting help they don't deserve at my expense' date=' than know some people who [b']do[/b] deserve help aren't getting it because I made a big stink over a few freeloaders.

 

 

Edit:

PS: The people who I would suspect of getting handouts in this case are corporations getting way overpaid by the government for the services rendered. And they aren't even hard up for cash.

I would say my own views are probably dead on with padren here. [over enthusiastic saturday afternoon]THANKS PEDRAN![/over enthusiastic saturday afternoon]

[TwistOfCain]

I swear if I hear one more story about a family being kicked out of their expensive hotel rooms or otherwise "re-victimized" I'm gonna barf up a lung. What have these people been DOING for the last few months' date=' aside from sitting around waiting for handout after handout?

 

One idiot on ABC News last night actually had the hutzpa to stand there in her Residence Inn suite (which I paid for) with her children eating dinner behind her (which I paid for), sporting a closet full of new clothing (which I paid for), and scream into the cameras, "They keep saying that we're going to get some help, but it NEVER COMES!"

 

(sigh)

 

That having been said, I know there are some folks down there who have been validly and understandably extra-harmed by various circumstances, including FEMA mistakes, price-gouging and insurance fraud, and I have no problem with those folks getting a little more time and assistance to get back on their feet.

 

But there are two other aspects of this that really irk me, and suggest that some hard-love governance is in order:

 

- New Orleans is BEGGING for labor. They cannot get enough of it. Illegal immigrants are shipping in by the truckload to take HIGH paying jobs that former residents REFUSE to move back for. (Easier to sit on your bum and beg for another free $2,000 debit card?)

 

-In the areas (mainly Texas and Georgia) where large numbers of New Orleans poor were shipped after the hurricane, the crime rates have SKYROCKETED. What a nice way to repay your hosts!

 

I know the latter is a bit of a straw man -- obviously not everyone there is a criminal, and a few bad apples are making the rest look bad. But you KNOW that's gonna have an impact.

 

I have an uncle who lives in Louisiana who was saying that he felt it may be the best thing that ever happened to both the city and to those people, over the long haul. The horrendous crime rate of New Orleans has now been spread out, which means it can actually be dealt with more effectively now, by non-corrupt law enforcement units all over the country.

 

And perhaps more to the point, many (if not all) of the communities these refugees (and let's face it, anybody still on the dole at this point IS a "refugee") were shipped to, unlike New Orleans and Louisiana, do NOT have large state welfare programs that you can get by on from generation to generation. They'll HAVE to go back to work. They just won't have any choice. (That's probably one of the reasons they're pestering the federal government so hard.)

 

Thoughts?[/quote']

 

 

I love how they blame the federal government for a local government error. "OH IT WAZ BUSHZ FALT DAT DA LEVIZ BROK" "HEZ A MUDERR" (Oh, it was Bushs fault the levies broke. He's a murderer.) He's a murder eh? Was he surfing around New Orleans with a Katana lopping peoples heads off? Nah. The levies breaking was obvious. I remember learning about them two years ago, and I was like..."A Cat 3 could probably flood New Orleans." I was watching CNN, and some professor said a first year engineering student would have seen the flaw in it. Guess what? A 6th grader saw a flaw in it. It's a local government issue. We're the United States, each state governs itself to a large extent. And we're supposed to help people shooting at the helpers? Looting stores? Refusing to leave? Yeah, they wouldn't leave. Forget leaving, although it was unsanitary, animal/plague ridden, anarchy, and violence. No, don't leave, nevermind that, especially when you can get yourself a new TV. "DA HERACAN DUN TOK ALL MAH SHEWZ" Oh, so now you need 10 pairs of 100 dollar shoes? Right. Quit your bitching, and leave like every other sensible person.

[Pangloss]

Speaking of which, PBS Frontline did a show on the Katrina aftermath this past week. They were relatively even-handed (for PBS), but I did catch a few instances of rather obvious bias. The general tone of the show was "local bad, federal good", in keeping with liberal political correctness. And some positions and interviews were misrepresented during the show, even from one scene to the next. For example, a national guard general said that he would again position troops in Jackson Barracks, and then his boss was told that his underling general had said that "he would do exactly the same thing" (which is not what he said at all) and asked to comment.

 

I think there's a valid point to be made that the federal government can and should set guidelines for emergency preparedness, much as it regulates highway construction or beef processing, etc. I don't have a problem with that on a general level. I also don't have a problem with many of the specific criticisms against the Bush administration's handling of FEMA -- clearly it's prospered under Democratic administrations and floundered under Republican ones.

 

But here are some of the things I do have a problem with:

- Yeah interoperability is needed, but it's ridiculous to require (that Frontline directly made and extensively supported) the federal government to enforce the purchasing of specific systems from specific manufacturers. What about local systems that are already partially up and running, and have clear and less expensive paths to interoperability with other manufacturers? What about product improvement and cost reduction through competition? What about corruption and special-interest-group lobbying in Washington?

 

- The general ignorance of how many states have managed to create superior emergency management systems without federal interference. (Look at Florida in 2005, withstanding far more total storm energy than Louisiana and Mississippi combined and yet virtually intact, and up and running within a few days of each storm.)

[padren]

New Orleans is somewhat unique in that they have a levy system (I don't think Florida needs one to my knowledge) that is overseen by the Army Corps of Engineers, and as long as it is their responsibility, its a federal responsibility to ensure they perform as expected.

 

Their requests and pleas for a budget that could cope with the threat were turned down for years, in which funding for the war in Iraq was specifically cited as a more important spending priority - and thats where Bush gets flak.

 

Still, even in peacetime, I can't say Democrats would be really that much more likely to properly fund such a project, since its money for a "worst case" scenario people never expect to happen. No disaster prevention or evacation is ever carried out to the degree it would be if people knew for absolute certain the worst case was actually going to hit - thats just human nature.

 

 

I do agree with you about the news having a bias, but you have to just accept that everything in the media has a conservative tilt these days, but it'll pass and things will get back to normal sooner or later.

[Pangloss]

Well good luck sliding into that tiny little margin between Al Franken and the New York Times that lets you call it "conservative". Just a friendly ribbing; to each his own and all that.

 

At any rate, I certainly agree with some of your post, and have no problem with the federal government helping out with the levee system. My personal opinion, in fact, is that New Orleans should be rebuilt with my tax dollars. This is America, and we don't give up on one of our own.

 

As irked as I am by beatniks complaining about not getting enough help, I'm even more irked by insurance fraud, price gouging and the federal government cutting FEMA's budget at the same time that the Red Cross is having to take out massive loans just to cover Hurricane Wilma et al.

[Douglas]

Just heard that the Katrina victims living in Residence Inn's in the Northern states, are now moving back to the Residence Inn's in Texas......guess it's too chilly up North.

 

EDITED to add it wasn't clear if they got free bus fare.