weather engine could it work for you?

[nathan322]

http://www.quasiturbine.com/

http://www.sterlingsolar.com/engines.htm

http://www.aircaraccess.com/nealtank.htm

http://www.stirlingengine.com/

 

 

my design which i conceived before i found theses other web sites is below

 

http://www.4vu.net/view/personal-573f74a946.jpg

 

its a modification of a steam engine ( http://www.unb.ca/web/transpo/mynet/steameng.gif ) using high pressures to boil liquid or gases at room temp, then close the system and direct it one direction with one-way valves. it amazing it simulates the earth weather system.

[insane_alien]

it won't be zero emission as you'll have to use some other source of energy (probably a combustion reaction) to create the heat

[H W Copeland]

looking at your diagram, it appears that all of the pistons would go down at once.

[padren]

I am curious, how do you calculate the max power output of such an engine?

 

I think, the amount of energy it takes to heat the cold source to the temp of the hot source is the effective measure of the energy input of the power source for the engine itself. If you use a naturally cold body of water and a naturally warm sun exposed land area you have a vast supply to replenish the system, but I think you can still factor the max power output somehow based on the temp difference.

 

Sorry, I am not familiar with the math... my general sense is that the sterling engine is very effecient but since it cannot break the laws of thermodynamics you can't gain car-engine-grade power without some fairly serious power into your heat/cool system.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

its a modification of a steam engine ( http://www.unb.ca/web/transpo/mynet/steameng.gif[/url'] ) using high pressures to boil liquid or gases at room temp, then close the system and direct it one direction with one-way valves. it amazing it simulates the earth weather system.

I thought gases boiled at low pressures, not high ones.

[nathan322]

This is how i believe a high low pressure system gains it energy what do you all think?

 

 

 

http://www.4vu.net/view/personal-a65f665c57.jpg

 

 

here is a motor that works on compressed air check it out its pretty cool

 

http://home.ctlnet.com/~robotguy67/classic_cars/air_engines/V-Twin/air_engines.htm

 

finnally check out these links

 

http://www.rexresearch.com/schaeffe/schaeffer.htm

 

http://www.planetarymysteries.com/energy/ie.html

 

http://www.padrak.com/ine/FEONBRTV.html

 

If your would like a couple documentaries then folow the likns below

 

you will need a bittorrent down loader to get them

http://www.utorrent.com/download/latest/utorrent.exe

 

Equinox - It Runs on Water - Overunity (Free Energy Broadcast 19

http://thepiratebay.org/details.php?id=3354080

 

TESLA - Free Energy, the Race to Zero Point (Physics) 1h49min

http://thepiratebay.org/details.php?id=3354164

 

Nikola Tesla - The Genius Who Lit the World (1994)

http://thepiratebay.org/details.php?id=3407573

[nathan322]

I thought gases boiled at low pressures, not high ones.

 

Yes your are right want I meant to say is the high pressure heats it and the lower pressure chamber allows it to change to a vapor (boil) and absorb heat from surrounding air

[nathan322]

If you would like to know more about what is happening check out this web site's explanation of Zero point energy theory

 

"Does electromagnetic zero-point energy exist, and if so, are there any practical applications and does it have any connection with dark energy? The theoretical basis for electromagnetic zero-point energy is clear. According to Sciama (1991):

 

"Even in its ground state, a quantum system possesses fluctuations and an associated zero-point energy, since otherwise the uncertainty principle would be violated. In particular the vacuum state of a quantum field has these properties. For example, the electric and magnetic fields in the electromagnetic vacuum are fluctuating quantities." "

 

The CasimirCasimir effect is an example of a one-loop effect in quantum electrodynamics that can be simply explained by the zero-point energy.

 

 

 

Here is anouther Zero Piont Energy explanation

 

 

"Zero-Point Energy

 

Quantum theory predicts, and experiments verify, that so-called empty space (the vacuum) contains an enormous residual background energy known as zero-point energy or ZPE. This energy derives its name from the fact that at temperatures of absolute zero (- 273o Celsius), elementary particles continue to exhibit energetic behavior. Advances in the theories of zero-point energy, nonlinear thermodynamics, and Connective Physics open up the possibility of cohering this energy for practical purposes -- in effect tapping the zero-point, and thereby accessing a universe-sized source of energy.

 

Originally, the possible uses of zero-point energy was thought to be of significance only for such esoteric concerns as small perturbations in atomic emission processes. But now, zero-point energy theories suggest new ways to understand inertia and gravity (and thus potentially control these forces!). Such theories may also be able to explain anomalies such as Sonoluminescence, the inhibition of spontaneous emission, and the generation of short-range attractive forces (e.g. the Casimir Effect). More practical applications include “mining” these vacuum fluctuations for practical uses such as spaceflight and such far-out possibilities as “warp-drive” space propulsion systems.

 

Theoretical contributions have been done by su"ch pioneers as Nobel laureates Ilya Prigogine, P. A. M. Dirac, John Wheeler, and Julian Schwinger. Prigogine, for example, has shown that the second law of thermodynamics can be expanded to include systems in which order evolves from randomness -- a result also obtained by Puthoff who utilized theories of zero-point energy to obtain an equivalent result.

 

The critical factor here is that linear systems tend toward increasing entropy (i.e. the result of two inputs being the sum of their corresponding outputs), whereas under certain conditions, nonlinear systems have been shown to evolve toward macroscopic order. Such nonlinear systems imply transient or apparently uncontrolled systems, but the reality remains that clever designs can and do provide means to skirt traditional understandings of thermodynamic limitations and literally tap into the surrounding universe for unlimited amounts of useful energy. "

[silkworm]

I'm working on a few things similar to this. The first I originally just began designing it as a free process to keep everyone from drowning, but then I saw how much energy I was wasting and that it could do some good work.

 

I have three finals starting in about 5 hours so I haven't had time to thoroughly go through your post here but it looks interesting, and I haven't had time to work on my things because I'm finishing a 20 hour semester.

 

Have you heard of that small car than runs on compressed air? There's also an engine that already exists that can run on small differences in temperature, I can't tell how similar yours is to that yet. Are you familiar with it?

 

I'm sorry I don't have anything valuable to contribute to your post, but I'll come back.

[nathan322]

Right on brother. I actually posted 4 different engines at top all run on compressed air. But compressed air works allot like a liquid when under pressure. all of the engines run off the same principles and so does the earth.

 

 

here's an example of thermal wind

http://www.4vu.net/view/personal-f636a42982.jpg

 

and here's a stirling engin animation and link

 

http://www.stirlingengine.com/Displacer-Anim.adp

http://www.stirlingengine.com/Displacer-Still.adp

 

oh yeah when you have time look it all over do so for once you under stand how they work you will be far ahead of all the jokers that call themselves scientists and debunkers. If any disagree that's cool, but remember I have aright to my OPINION.and you do as well.

[casualobserv]

Would this be considered a perpetual motion device, since it would run with out gasoline?

 

sorry if that's a stupid question, that's just what it looks like to me.

 

 

-yours truly .....casualobserver

[nathan322]

Just to set the record strait this is not perpetual motion it uses the suns rays to heat the air then use the energy stored in the air by concentrating it then expanding it. Just freaking read matirial the love of god.

 

SOLAR AIR

[RW1]

Nathan,

The web site you're pointing to is an internet fraud. Donald Robertson is a con man of the worst sort.

 

He claims an invention on this page which takes air, compresses it, and uses that compressed air to run an air motor which produces more power than is needed for compression. This is in clear violation of the second law of thermodynamics and if you look closely at his "invention" you'll find numerous violations of the first law of thermodynamics as well. For example, he shows no energy removal to reduce the temperature of the air once inside the cylinder, yet at the discharge he shows the air motor rejecting air at either a temperature which must be below ambient to produce more work than is needed to compress it, or he mistakenly shows heat entering the air prior to it being rejected by the air motor. It is unclear which he is proposing, but both of these processes are in violation of the first law.

 

To be clear, the invention shown is a perpetual motion machine. That in itself is insufficient to make the claim that Donald Robertson is a con man/thief/internet fraud, etc.

 

What is clearly internet fraud is the fact he asks for "donations" for his air car concept.

Don't donate here.

Or here.

[nathan322]

Nathan' date='

The web site you're pointing to is an internet fraud. Donald Robertson is a con man of the worst sort.

 

He claims an invention on this page which takes air, compresses it, and uses that compressed air to run an air motor which produces more power than is needed for compression. This is in clear violation of the second law of thermodynamics and if you look closely at his "invention" you'll find numerous violations of the first law of thermodynamics as well. For example, he shows no energy removal to reduce the temperature of the air once inside the cylinder, yet at the discharge he shows the air motor rejecting air at either a temperature which must be below ambient to produce more work than is needed to compress it, or he mistakenly shows heat entering the air prior to it being rejected by the air motor. It is unclear which he is proposing, but both of these processes are in violation of the first law.

 

To be clear, the invention shown is a perpetual motion machine. That in itself is insufficient to make the claim that Donald Robertson is a con man/thief/internet fraud, etc.

 

What is clearly internet fraud is the fact he asks for "donations" for his air car concept.

Don't donate here.

Or here.

 

Ok maybe your right. but if that's true you or SOMEONE should report him to this place. http://www.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp

 

I don't see any prof of fraud, pardon me if I don't take your word for it.

Asking for donations does not prove a fraud, and your statement shows that you have not look into weather or not this is real which is the only way to know for sure. That is why im willing to admit the POSSIBILITY he might be a fraud be cause I have never seen it work. I am also NOT affiliated with any of these web sites and have nothing to gain. Unless you count living in a better world a gain.

So call him a fraud if you want but with out proof it just may be you that turns out to be the fraud.

 

Thanks for your input no hard feelings I hope. If you feel mad just remember what Jewels said in pulp fiction:

"Look my friend, this is just where me and you differ"

 

 

P.S. No one should give or spend any money at that guys site or any other similar unless they are buying a engine(stirling or if you can afford it one of the quasiturbines). If any one wants to know how it works or how to mod a current engine they can email me (doing so you release me from any liability for actions you may take due to our communications. In short I accept no reasonability for you or any one else's actions stemming from this topic) at nathanmcdonald@hotmail.com please make sure the subject is to the point or it will go to and stay in the junk mail

[nathan322]

error in edit please delete this

[RW1]

Ok maybe you right. but if that's true you or SOMEONE should report him to this place.

I already did. Thanks.

 

I don't see any prof of fraud, pardon me if I don't take your word for it.

Air motors and heat pumps are real devices. The device he shows is neither of these, it is a perpetual motion machine because it violates the second law of thermodynamics. The web site is trying to get donations and thus is attempting to get money for a device which will never work even in principal. It is therefore a fraud and is attempting to relieve the unwary such as yourself from your hard earned $$$.

 

I wouldn't expect you to understand this, you need an engineering or scientific background. Anyone with an understanding of how nature works will see this machine as an impossibility instantly. Any engineer can see the problem with this right away, but I would agree with you that the problem is totally unclear to a layman such as yourself.

 

For engineers and engineering students - here is how I'd suggest looking at this: Put a control volume around the device and examine what is going in and out. He has enthalpy in at #8, heat in at #2, enthalpy out at #2 and work out at #2. For a steady state system such as this, dU = 0, and from the first law we can write his system as follows:

dU = 0 = Hin + Qin - Hout - Wout

From this we can go one of two ways by simply recognizing he's created a closed loop if we take the exhaust from #2 and put it into #8 with the addition or removal of heat:

 

1. Hout < Hin: In this case, we could add heat to the air after it exits and before it enters (Qin2) and thus the entire system becomes: dU = 0 = Qin - Wout + Qin2

or: Wout = Qin + Qin2

thus a violation per the Clausius statement (ie: all heat was converted to work)

 

2. Hout > Hin: Here we must remove heat from the air after it exits and before it enters (Qin2).

dU = 0 = Qin - Wout - Qin2

or

Wout = Qin - Qin2

This violation of the second law is not quite as obvious. What makes this a violation is the fact that the temperatures of the heat sinks for Qin and Qin2 are identical (ie: ambient temperature). In this case, Qin2 removes heat to the environment and Qin adds heat to the environment and the difference between the two is the amount of work done. Remembering that removing heat from the environment and convert it all to work is a violation of the second law of thermodynamics explains why this particular solution to the heat engine proposed by the con man at aircaraccess.com won't work. This is a violation of the Kevin-Planck Statement. See Wikipedia:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Second_Law_%28Engineering_Thermodynamics%29#Statement_of_the_Second_Law_of_Thermodynamics

 

I am also NOT affiliated with any of these web sites and have nothing to gain.

Glad to hear it.

 

Thanks for your input no hard feelings I hope.

Of course I have no 'hard feelings'. I'm not the person that needs to learn this stuff. I've been an engineer practicing thermodynamics for decades. Why would I feel my experience or knowledge is threatened? If you want to learn something, you need to ask, not tell people you've done something which you simply have no concept about.

 

Regarding your heat engine, you really haven't explained it, but it seems to have the same fundamental problem. Your work seems to violate the second law. Energy can't be removed from the environment and converted to work without rejecting heat to a low temperature sink. That much is clear. What exactly your 'idea' is, is unclear. Please elaborate if you'd like a more thorough evaluation.

[nathan322]

I already did. Thanks.

 

 

Air motors and heat pumps are real devices. The device he shows is neither of these' date=' it is a perpetual motion machine because it violates the second law of thermodynamics. The web site is trying to get donations and thus is attempting to get money for a device which will never work even in principal. It is therefore a fraud and is attempting to relieve the unwary such as yourself from your hard earned $$$.

 

I wouldn't expect you to understand this, you need an engineering or scientific background. Anyone with an understanding of how nature works will see this machine as an impossibility instantly. Any engineer can see the problem with this right away, but I would agree with you that the problem is totally unclear to a layman such as yourself.

 

For engineers and engineering students - here is how I'd suggest looking at this: Put a control volume around the device and examine what is going in and out. He has enthalpy in at #8, heat in at #2, enthalpy out at #2 and work out at #2. For a steady state system such as this, dU = 0, and from the first law we can write his system as follows:

dU = 0 = Hin + Qin - Hout - Wout

From this we can go one of two ways by simply recognizing he's created a closed loop if we take the exhaust from #2 and put it into #8 with the addition [i']or [/i]removal of heat:

 

1. Hout < Hin: In this case, we could add heat to the air after it exits and before it enters (Qin2) and thus the entire system becomes: dU = 0 = Qin - Wout + Qin2

or: Wout = Qin + Qin2

thus a violation per the Clausius statement (ie: all heat was converted to work)

 

2. Hout > Hin: Here we must remove heat from the air after it exits and before it enters (Qin2).

dU = 0 = Qin - Wout - Qin2

or

Wout = Qin - Qin2

This violation of the second law is not quite as obvious. What makes this a violation is the fact that the temperatures of the heat sinks for Qin and Qin2 are identical (ie: ambient temperature). In this case, Qin2 removes heat to the environment and Qin adds heat to the environment and the difference between the two is the amount of work done. Remembering that removing heat from the environment and convert it all to work is a violation of the second law of thermodynamics explains why this particular solution to the heat engine proposed by the con man at aircaraccess.com won't work. This is a violation of the Kevin-Planck Statement. See Wikipedia:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Second_Law_%28Engineering_Thermodynamics%29#Statement_of_the_Second_Law_of_Thermodynamics

 

 

Glad to hear it.

 

 

Of course I have no 'hard feelings'. I'm not the person that needs to learn this stuff. I've been an engineer practicing thermodynamics for decades. Why would I feel my experience or knowledge is threatened? If you want to learn something, you need to ask, not tell people you've done something which you simply have no concept about.

 

Regarding your heat engine, you really haven't explained it, but it seems to have the same fundamental problem. Your work seems to violate the second law. Energy can't be removed from the environment and converted to work without rejecting heat to a low temperature sink. That much is clear. What exactly your 'idea' is, is unclear. Please elaborate if you'd like a more thorough evaluation.

 

 

Thanks for the explanation. Your opinion is educated and logical. I would like to ask you a few more questions if I may. I'm guessing your a busy man so I appreciate any time you have given me and understand if you don't donate anymore. If anyone else wants to take the question that's cool the more the merrier. Lets just try to keep it as precise possible, with as little opinion as possible.

 

The first question has to do with a air tank filled with compressed air. When its valve is opened and all the air escapes, we can observe, that the tank gets very cold.

 

Why does the tank get cold and what does it do to the surrounding air?

 

If something is wrong with my question, please let me know and please be polite.

[mrblond5311]

Thanks for the explanation. Your opinion is educated and logical. I would like to ask you a few more questions if I may. I'm guessing your a busy man so I appreciate any time you have given me and understand if you don't donate anymore. If anyone else wants to take the question that's cool the more the merrier. Lets just try to keep it as precise possible' date=' with as little opinion as possible.

 

The first question has to do with a air tank filled with compressed air. When its valve is opened and all the air escapes, we can observe, that the tank gets very cold.

 

Why does the tank get cold and what does it do to the surrounding air?

 

If something is wrong with my question, please let me know and please be polite.[/quote']

 

 

I'm no engineer or anything but I know that when you decompress air it takes some of the heat created by the compression & some of the heat from the tank (I think)out with it therefore making the tank cooler.This is why you get water leaking from the valve because of the decompressed air condensing to a liquid. Somewhat like what goes on in a refrigeration system but then the liquid( refrigerant) is then recycled back through the system to pick up heat again. As for the second question I would assume the surrounding air would heat up due to the heat being released with it & "possibly" the force of the air coming out creating friction. Sorry, but I may not be entirely correct about this but I'm just trying to help. I also am trying to get answers to some questions I have on here. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me. I would only appreciate the chance to expand my knowledge. Thanks!

[Jacques]

I read an article about a motor running why the sun heat In the desert to pump water. The law of thermodynamic apply even with a small temperature difference (but less efficently the pumped water was at 5 C and the air 40 C) Efficency drop to zero when there is no temperature difference.

[RW1]

Why does the tank get cold . . . ?

The simple explanation: The first law of thermodynamics is the conservation of energy. Just as mass can not be created nor destroyed, energy can not be created or destroyed.* So the first law is like a bank ledger book that says all the energy we have can only be moved about into different forms such as internal energy, heat or work.

 

In the case of a high pressure tank blowing air out and the pressure decaying, energy in the form of internal energy (which is a function of the gas' temperature) is converted to work energy and lost as it escapes out the tank valve. It actually doesn't do any work per se since it is irreversible and that energy goes into the environment. So the internal energy of the gas inside the tank goes into the environment and the result is that the gas gets cold.

 

More rigerous explanation: The first law can be rewritten as follows for a control volume:

dU = Hin - Hout + Win - Wout + Qin - Qout

Note that potential and kinetic energy of the fluid has been neglected here which is common because those energies are typically negligable.

For the case of a high pressure gas tank blowing that gas to atmosphere, there is no work done, nothing going into the tank, and we shall initially assume no heat flow. The first law can then be rewritten:

dU = Hout

Note that Hout = Uout + PV

 

So the energy that is escaping as each bit of mass escapes is equal to the pressure times the specific volume. Thus, the internal energy (dU) of the gas inside the tank decreases by the amount PV with every chunk of mass that escapes. Note also that PV changes continuously as the pressure decays, becoming smaller and smaller as pressure drops.

 

Another interesting way of looking at this is to break up the gas inside the tank into very small control volumes so that there are hundreds or millions of them inside the tank. For every control volume (CV) that remains inside the tank, we find that control volume expanding as other control volumes leave. The CV's that remain inside the tank don't "know" the others left, they only know they are expanding. If they have no heat flow (adiabatic expansion) then we will also realize they are expanding reversibly and isentropically. The entropy is constant, but the energy per unit mass drops as they expand. The conclusion of this is that the gas that remains in the tank acts as if it is expanding reversibly and adiabatically along a line of constant entropy. Note that this analysis of the gas inside the tank will match the first law calculation where dU = Hout.

 

. . . and what does it do to the surrounding air?

Once the tank begins to cool, the assumption there is no heat transfer becomes invalid because obviously there will be heat transfer from the metal tank to the gas and once the metal tank gets cold there will be heat transfer from the environment to the metal tank and then to the gas inside. So the surrounding air begins to cool, albeit only very slightly, as the tank cools. With any significant volume of ambient gas, the temperature change will be negligable.

 

 

*Note there is the exception of energy being equivalent to matter so we can generalize this and say that matter and energy can not be created nor destroyed but we don't need to consider this when considering typical thermal engines here on earth. It is sufficient to recognize that energy is neither created nor destroyed.

[RW1]

This is why you get water leaking from the valve because of the decompressed air condensing to a liquid.

Just to clarify, air or other gasses expanding across a valve often get cold because of the way molecules rearrange themselves as they expand irreversibly. Note that the expansion of a gas across a valve is an irreversible expansion. It is also isenthalpic (enthalpy of the gas doesn't change). As it expands it can get colder, though some gasses such as helium actually get warmer on expanding like this. It is the reduction in temperature of the gas that makes the valve cold and when the valve gets cold, water from the atmosphere condenses on it.

[RW1]

I read an article about a motor running why the sun heat In the desert to pump water. The law of thermodynamic apply even with a small temperature difference (but less efficently the pumped water was at 5 C and the air 40 C) Efficency drop to zero when there is no temperature difference.

Yes, Jacques is correct. Heat from the sun can be used to create a high temperature heat sink that is hotter than the environment. Anyone that's fried ants with a magnifying glass can attest to that. A thermodynamic cycle can then be created that takes the energy from the sun at high temperature, converts some of it to work energy, and rejects the rest of the energy to the lower temperature environment.

 

As Jacques points out, as the temperature difference between the two heat sinks drops, the efficiency (or the amount of work that can be pulled out of the system) "drops to zero when there is no temperature difference."

[nathan322]

*Note there is the exception of energy being equivalent to matter so we can generalize this and say that matter and energy can not be created nor destroyed but we don't need to consider this when considering typical thermal engines here on earth. It is sufficient to recognize that energy is neither created nor destroyed.

 

 

Thanks I understood most of that, although I must admit this is a little over my head. dU = Hin - Hout + Win - Wout + Qin - Qout

 

 

Well here is another if you want to. What similarities are there between what you just explained and a conventional explosive. In other words what factors are the same in the release of energy from solid matter when compared to the release of energy from compressed gasses?

[RW1]

...this is a little over my head. dU = Hin - Hout + Win - Wout + Qin - Qout

 

The equation you're refering to is pretty simple really. The conservation of energy means the amount of energy going into plus the amount of energy coming out of some (control) volume in various forms will equal the change in the amount of energy stored inside the volume. Energy is recognized going in or out in various forms, enthalpy (H), work (W) and heat (Q). What is in the volume is internal energy (U). There are other forms of energy that can affect the control volume in a thermal system such as potential and kinetic energy changes of the bulk fluid but they don't typically contribute any significant amount to the system and are often neglected.

 

What similarities are there between what you just explained and a conventional explosive. In other words what factors are the same in the release of energy from solid matter when compared to the release of energy from compressed gasses?

Any time energy is generated within your control volume, that energy is recognized as heat going in (Qin). For example, an explosive detonating, a fuel/air mixture burning, or even an electric heating element which is inside the volume. Of course, if there's a molecular change from hydrogen and oxygen to water for example, one also takes that into account. This type of analysis is very common for chemical engineers. Mechanical engineers like myself don't usually deal with processes involving chemical change within a control volume.