The Organon of Medicine

[Sayonara]

That really didn't help your case.

[timokay]

Say,

 

It was directed at Francine, wherever she be.

The key issue being looked at now is the PROVINGS of homeopathic medicines. If they can be performed as Double-Blind Placebo-controlled trials, this would bring Homeopathy into Science.

 

I have more for Fran but she's disappeared. Any comments appreciated.

 

These were my next points to her:

 

We need to distinguish between REAL symptoms and symptoms arising from the "system in failure" (disease). The latter are apparently spurious, but this is not the case..they are real and predictable, and form a specific pattern with each type of failure.

I have seen this type of thing occurring in large mainframe computer networks as well...initially it appears to be spurious, but on close examination, patterns are found - giving clues to the problem which caused the failure. And the next time the system fails due to the same cause, those very same patterns emerge again.

 

I don't think you know nor understand this, as a symptom is something very simple to you. You could not imagine people spending 4 or 5 years studying symptoms in great detail (and then another 25 years of study in general practice, nor appreciate the value of it, yet this forms the basis of Homeopathy.

 

 

Say: In the next post, will show you Hahnemann's emphasis on symptoms - the tools of his trade.

 

Tim

[Sayonara]

We don't have a member called Francine. Regardless, the content is of interest - not the intended audience.

 

I wish you'd stop making assumptions about what I understand, what I can imagine, or how I "see" symptoms.

[timokay]

Say,

 

No assumptions about what you understand....my points directed at Francine, as I stated.

 

Francine will register soon, I hope. I have left messages for her to join your fine forum, so we can resume this issue.

 

This link shows Hahnemann's emphasis on symptoms.

 

http://www.homeoint.org/books/hahorgan/organ100.htm#P104

[Sayonara]

Ah yes, missed "These were my next points to her: ". My apologies

 

Where is Francine coming from?

[timokay]

HAHNEMANN MASTERED SYMPTOMS

 

 

Hahnemann resolved a problem into all of its components. The problem was human disease, and he conquered it.

 

Three things enabled this to be accomplished:

 

1. that in disease conditions, the body expresses the disease externally through many symptoms and signs, amenable to doctor and patient, and the combination of all of these symptoms are found to be unique for each type of disease.

 

2. he discovered and then honed many substances that mimic human disease symptom patterns. By very extensive research into the actions of these substances on people, he was able to unravel the components (or layers of complexity) of the "observed symptom pattern", and then was able to separate these components from eachother so that they were recognised and understood. He also found a preparation method for these substances that made them FAR MORE useful, both for the above analytical work, and as medicines because many more symptoms would appear in "potentized" preparations.

 

3. he discovered a natural law; that if a medicine can be found which closely matches, in symptoms, those associated with the sick person's disease, then, by using the medicine to further enhance these matching symptoms in the patient, the whole disease resolves completely.

----------------------------------------------------

 

It was through step 2 above that the layers of complexity to the "observed symptom pattern" were elucidated. These can be summarised, logically, as follows (though they were not discovered and identified by Hahnemann in this convenient logical sequence). Hahnemann knew he had a problem if his medicines were not behaving consistently or as expected. He had to determine the cause.

 

1. The substances used to make the medicines must be in simple, unrefined form. APH 123.

 

2. The preparation procedure must include COMPLETE decontamination of the Mortar/Pestle/Spatula. APH 270.

 

3. Distinction between symptoms relating to the Primary action of the medicine and the Counteraction (or secondary action) by the body (VF). APH 63.

 

Aph 63. Every medicine that acts to alter the VF, brings about modifications to health called the PRIMARY ACTION. The primary action is a product of both the medicine and the VF, but mainly the former. The VF is initially passive, and accepts the medicine's action. But later, the VF tends to oppose the influence by the medicine, and this is called the SECONDARY ACTION or COUNTER ACTION. And this opposite action usually matches the strength of the medicine's primary action.

 

4. When administering doses, must begin with small doses otherwise the Primary action symptoms appear too quickly and prompt an opposing secondary action; symptoms appear to swing back to the opposite symptom.

 

But, there is a separate kind of symptoms that present with "alternating actions", because their nature is to alternate presentation, i.e., swings between extremes. APH 115.

 

Aph 115: There are some symptoms occurring in the case of some medicines which are partially, or under certain conditions, directly opposite to other symptoms that have previously or subsequently appeared, yet they are not secondary action (i.e., the mere reaction of the vital force) but represent the alternating state of various paroxysms of the primary action; they are termed alternating actions.

 

When the Primary/secondary action symptoms are alternating, it is very difficult to distinguish between these symptoms and those of the alternating kind. They MUST be distinguishable for the essential recognition of this medicine's symptom pattern.

 

5. When a symptom pattern is carefully studied in the patient, the pattern may be distorted by the symptoms of a second disease in the background - normally a chronic disease. The doctor must do his best to match the "presenting symptom pattern" to that of a medicine.

When that medicine has completed its action, the totality of symptoms must again be assessed if the disease has not resolved. The characteristics of the remaining symptoms will direct the doctor either to consider this to be of the chronic disease type, or another of the acute type, and select a medicine accordingly.

 

6.Idiosyncracies: Particular physical dispositions are abnormally sensitive, and display more symptoms than other people. But these influences caused by the medicine ARE actually affecting ALL people, though they only appear as symptoms in so-called idiosyncratic people. APH 117.

 

Aph 117: Some symptoms produced by medicines only appear in very few healthy people, called the idiosyncrasies, meaning peculiar corporeal constitutions which, although otherwise healthy, possess a disposition to be brought into a more or less morbid state by certain things which seem to produce no impression and no change in other people. But this inability to make an impression on everyone is only apparent. For as two things are required for the production of these as well as all other morbid alterations in the health of man - to wit., the inherent power of the influencing substance, and the capability of the vital force that animates the organism to be influenced by it - the obvious derangements of health in the so-called idiosyncrasies cannot be laid to the account of these peculiar constitutions alone, but they must also be ascribed to these things that produce them, in which must lie the power of making the same impressions on all human bodies, yet in such a manner that but a small number of healthy constitutions have a tendency to allow themselves to be brought into such an obvious morbid condition by them. That these agents do actually make this impression on every healthy body is shown by the fact that when employed as remedies they render effectual homoeopathic service to all sick persons for morbid symptoms similar to those they seem to be only capable of producing in so-called idiosyncratic individuals.

 

There are about five more "layers of complexity" to the "presenting symptom pattern..will do them later.

 

Tim

[Rolfe]

Tim, have you ever taken part in a proving yourself?

 

Rolfe.

[timokay]

Hi Rolfe,

 

Not a formal proving but many informal ones. All I did was buy some Homeopathic medicines from the Chemist/Pharmacy and tried them. They all produce symptoms - quite bizarre, because I wasn't ill. (Tried Rhus Tox, Arnica, Calc Carb, Silica, Bryonia; brand name NELSONS- available worldwide.)

 

It is not a matter of taking one pill and waiting a day or two, but take them every 2 hours 'til symptoms appear. Anyone wishing to try a proving, go for BRYONIA 6c because it acts quickly.

 

Tim

[Rolfe]

I've seen these Nelson's remedies, you can get them anywhere as you say. However, I've been given to understand that Hahnemenn himself insisted that 30C potencies should be used for all provings. Wouldn't you have to use that potency to be consistent with his work?

 

Rolfe

[timokay]

Re. my last post on symptoms:

 

We need to distinguish between REAL symptoms and symptoms arising from the "system in failure" (disease).

 

By REAL, I mean true or intended symptoms; i.e., what our sensory/perception systems are constructing and intend us to know about.

 

Disease represents a failure of the disease management system...a domino effect with numerous processes going wrong....in these circumstances, the symptoms produced are unintended sensory/perception activities....there are hundreds of them occurring with each disease if you look closely enough.

 

They may appear spurious effects but that is not the case, as they occur in the same form, consistently and predictably each time a person suffers that disease. A repeated proving, where symptoms associated with medicines are deliberately brought out, allows a detailed investigation of these symptoms.

 

It is a field of study that Medical Science has not looked at in so much detail. But they would look at them, they would have to, if we can come up with a Proving methodology conforming to double-blind placebo-controlled (DBPC) criteria, the doorway into Science.

 

I hope you people can help sort this out.

 

Say: I don't know where Francine is...she was on the BBC Current Science, Homeopathyhome site, and siforums...though she has different user names on each site. I have sent her invites.

Tim

[timokay]

Good point Rolfe.

 

I've seen these Nelson's remedies, you can get them anywhere as you say. However, I've been given to understand that Hahnemenn himself insisted that 30C potencies should be used for all provings. Wouldn't you have to use that potency to be consistent with his work?

 

Actually, Hahnemann is referring to his Q-potencies, which are not the same as Nelsons. They would be ideal if you can get hold of them, and should be used in any OFFICIAL PROVING.

 

But, in a home-trial there is no need to be so fussy as you are not going to be writing down ALL the symptoms. This is just to demonstrate that they occur.

 

I do have concerns with the preparation processes used, and concerned that they may not be strictly to Hahhnemann's procedure (which he insisted upon), see APH 270..very detailed.

 

This matter certainly needs to be addressed before any serious provings.

 

http://www.homeoint.org/books/hahorgan/organ260.htm#P270E6

[Rolfe]

I've come across different ways of doing this (doses at 12-hour intervals, just one single dose, your 2-hour system and so on), but choosing whichever one you want, you'd be confident of recognising some symptoms if you took one of these remedies?

 

Never mind the potency just now, you do think something happens?

 

Rolfe?

[timokay]

Rolfe,

 

If you keep taking them, symptoms will always appear...it's a matter of time. If you select Bryonia 6c, it would usually happen by the third or fourth 2-Hour dose. With 30c potency, symptoms would take longer to appear, but would last longer.

 

Hahnemann potentized to 30c to get a milder, deeper action. 6c would bring the symptoms on more quickly. And I suggested Bryonia because it is particularly noted for "alternating symptoms" that everyone would experience.

 

The symptoms would be unmistakable...not subtle...certainly not something that could be called a placebo effect.

 

Tim

[Rolfe]

timokay said in post #38 :

If you keep taking them, symptoms will always appear...it's a matter of time. If you select Bryonia 6c, it would usually happen by the third or fourth 2-Hour dose. With 30c potency, symptoms would take longer to appear, but would last longer.

 

Hahnemann potentized to 30c to get a milder, deeper action. 6c would bring the symptoms on more quickly. And I suggested Bryonia because it is particularly noted for "alternating symptoms" that everyone would experience.

 

The symptoms would be unmistakable...not subtle...certainly not something that could be called a placebo effect.

 

All right, pick Bryonia if you think that one is particularly good at producing symptoms that are easy to spot.

 

Now, let's suppose....

 

I've got some Bryonia pills, and I've also got some pills which look and taste just the same, but which don't have any remedy in them (that is, they're "blank"). I give you one or the other - you don't know whether I've given you the bottle with the Bryonia or the bottle with the blanks. Would you be able to tell which I'd given you, just by waiting to see if the expected symptoms appeared?

 

Rolfe

[timokay]

Symptom appearance with real pills:

 

Within six-eight hours in my case, and the symptoms would continue for about 12 hours if I stopped as soon as they appeared.

 

Symptom appearance with blanks:

 

Nothing.

[Rolfe]

timokay said in post #40 :

Symptom appearance with real pills:

 

Within six-eight hours in my case, and the symptoms would continue for about 12 hours if I stopped as soon as they appeared.

 

Symptom appearance with blanks:

 

Nothing.

 

And that would still be the case with potencies of greater than 12C or 24X? (Accepting that it might take longer to see the effect.)

 

Rolfe

[timokay]

Rolfe

 

Yes. Hahnemann found a remarkable variation in sensitivity to medicines. One person may perceive the symptoms quickly while another would need many more doses before they appeared....but the expected symptoms do occur. In the sensitive people the symptoms would clearly appear at different times and would be easily distinguishable from eachother. In a robust person, nothing may happen for a day and then they would all start to appear together, and overlap with eachother.

 

That is why I give MY experience. Cannot predict the actual time of appearance of symptoms in you.

 

Tim

[BigGiantHead]

timokay said in post #35 :

I don't know where Francine is...

 

Here now, but wanted to see if this identity had been used and now it won't let me change it, so BGH I am. As an alien, and being just a head, of course there is no gender, but carry on with she if that helps continuity.

 

Anyway, back at the ranch, and not wishing to interrupt, but I notice that you didn't respond to what seemed to be strong references from 'Glider' attempting high-potency provings of mercury and belladonna, one of which was done by an advocate of homeopathy (Walach). Both gave negative results.

 

Anyway I'll look in when you've finished speaking to Rolfe to see what you say.

 

(By the way, I wasn't going to join because I tired of all this stuff about other posters' identities. Let's just get on with the debate)

 

BGH (as it is now).

[Rolfe]

timokay said in post #42 :

Yes. ... One person may perceive the symptoms quickly while another would need many more doses before they appeared....but the expected symptoms do occur. In the sensitive people the symptoms would clearly appear at different times and would be easily distinguishable from eachother. In a robust person, nothing may happen for a day and then they would all start to appear together, and overlap with eachother.

 

That is why I give MY experience. Cannot predict the actual time of appearance of symptoms in you.

 

Tim

 

That's OK, I'm asking about you, you're the one who's tried it.

 

When you did these informal provings, did you know what symptoms you were suppose to feel? From the reports of the formal, published provings, I mean?

 

Rolfe.

[timokay]

BGH,

 

Welcome. This is Francine everyone, but BGH will do.

 

...but I notice that you didn't respond to what seemed to be strong references from 'Glider' attempting high-potency provings of mercury and belladonna, one of which was done by an advocate of homeopathy (Walach). Both gave negative results.

 

They just have to keep taking them. There are many possible reasons for failure. Reputable manufacturer (Nelsons/Weleda). Taken preferably on an empty stomach, at least between meals at 2-hour intervals. 6c better than 30c if they want a quick response, and I have suggested Bryonia because the symptoms are so clear and early...you don't have to go without coffee etc for long...6 hours probably enough...don't touch the pills - let them dissolve on tongue.

 

Anyway BGH we should get back to the DBPC issue. Please read my last posts to you above.

 

Tim

[Rolfe]

timokay said in post #45 :

Anyway BGH we should get back to the DBPC issue.

 

Tim

 

This is Rolfe. Humour me, because this is going the same place as the DBPC issue.

 

Did you know what symptoms you were expecting to experience when you took the remedies you told us about above?

 

Rolfe.

[BigGiantHead]

Rolfe's on a roll here, so I'll wait and see where that's going, especially since he/she says it's in DBPC territory. It may be that the issues wil get covered by this route so I'll avoid duplication for now.

 

Cheers BGH

 

(Rolfe- Excellent cat photo)

[timokay]

Rolfe,

 

Can easily address your issues too. I did not know the expected symptoms from Bryonia before trying it. Afterwards, as symptoms were so marked, and early, I looked to see what Hahnemann said about Bryonia in the Organon and his Materia Medica.

 

Bryonia and about 5 others are noted for symptoms with "alternating actions", very obvious symptoms. That is what I had noticed about Bryonia, compared to the others I tried.

 

Tim

[timokay]

BGH,

 

I hope you went back to the first "to Francine" post half way down Page 2.

 

The issue seems to be "Do you really understand symptoms?"

[timokay]

BGH,

"Well, it's just wrong to say that anything and everything happening after an experimental intervention is caused by it. Random things happen anyway; things happen due to causes other than the one I actively produced;"

 

Random things? Random in the body? I don't know about you, but random symptoms don't happen to me, without an explanation. I suppose its the subjectivity of it all that bothers you.

 

I think you simply do not understand the practicalities of symptoms, their solidity, their identifiability.

 

Tim