Reactions to President Bush's address

[cosine]

Hey, as some of you probably watched, President Bush gave an address from the Oval Office. This is a good thread to post any comments or analysis you have of the speech.

 

The first obvious thing I noticed was that he did not give a time table, which has dissappointed many people. No one wants an indeterminantly long war that could drag on for an unknown amount of time.

 

He introduced the word "defeatist" to describe people against the war.

 

There are a few other things in his speech, but there were somethings he mentioned that the BBC didn't discuss afterwards. Mainly how he said "People will be gathering for Christmas and Hanukka" Then quoted a christmas carol. I thought this was in poor taste and pandering to an evengelical religous faction of the U.S. that is currently upset over the popular replacement of "Merry Christmas" with "Happy Holidays."

[ecoli]

I didn't even realize that he was giving a speech today.... is it available online, or perhaps a transcript would be even better?

[silkworm]

I didn't either, he rarely says anything, and I try to see it all. I'll look around for it on TV and the net and post whatever I find.

[Pangloss]

CNN has a transcript of the speech here:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/18/bush.transcript/

 

I have not heard it or read it yet. I actually took some time away from politics today (gasp!), although that's not entirely true since I did catch one political show this morning (This Week, on ABC).

[Sisyphus]

The anecdote about "an Iraqi" at the polls made me giggle. That didn't really belong in a serious speach, and just reminded of the Kurds, who have far more loyalty towards a Kurdish state than an Iraqi one.

 

Also, note he never used the word "insurgents." Only "terrorists," equating resisting an occupation with carrying out 9/11 (which he can't make any speach without mentioning), as if they would all still be attacking America if there had been no war. 80% of politics is finding convenient names for things.

 

On the plus side, he did say the war in Iraq has been more difficult than anticipated. It's not admitting a mistake, exactly, but its the closest I've seen him do.

[bascule]

Yet now there are only two options before our country – victory or defeat.

 

They really love framing the debate that way

 

Check out the new video on the RNC web site... it's pretty awful... especially since it ends with a bunch of whiny defeatist democrats ruining some soldier's christmas... except then the liberal media discovered that the picture was actually taken from some soldier watching The Grinch Who Stole Christmas. Kinda funny.

 

Ed: 1,000 posts w00t!

[Pangloss]

"Only a Sith lord speaks in absolute terms!"

 

(It cracked me up the way all the stories surrounding the Star Wars Episode 3 comparisons with real-world politics mentioned phrases like Anakin's "with us or my enemy" quote, or several other quotes, but completely missed that the Sith lord quote above directly implies that Palpatine is Bush.)

[sarge]

Check out the new video on the RNC web site... it's pretty awful... especially since it ends with a bunch of whiny defeatist democrats ruining some soldier's christmas... .

 

Ed: 1' date='000 posts w00t![/quote']

 

What video was that? All I could find was the one about Dean, Pelosi and Kerry waving a white flag.

[cosine]

What video was that? All I could find was the one about Dean, Pelosi and Kerry waving a white flag.

Same here.

[bascule]

What video was that? All I could find was the one about Dean, Pelosi and Kerry waving a white flag.

 

That's it... watch it until the end...

 

http://www.gop.com/MultiMedia/VideoPlayer.aspx?ID=1039&TypeID=2

 

Here's the original image that they used:

 

 

And here's what they made it into in the video:

 

 

http://www.slate.com/id/2132087/?nav=ais

 

On an unrelated topic, why is that dude watching The Grinch Who Stole Christmas with an unloaded M16 strapped to his back?

[ecoli]

absolutely despicable. Where do these people get the gall to produce fake videos such as these.

[starbug1]

nice find bascule. Still, even with my low opinion of this kind of media, I could think they'd do a little better than that. GEEZ!

 

By the way, who of us on SFN is registered with the military? (I'm not)

[ecoli]

By the way, who of us on SFN is registered with the military? (I'm not)

 

Did you mean currently or vets? (I'm not either of those, I'm just asking for clarification)

[sarge]

That's it... watch it until the end...

 

http://www.gop.com/MultiMedia/VideoPlayer.aspx?ID=1039&TypeID=2

 

Here's the original image that they used:

 

 

And here's what they made it into in the video:

 

 

http://www.slate.com/id/2132087/?nav=ais

 

On an unrelated topic' date=' why is that dude watching The Grinch Who Stole Christmas with an unloaded M16 strapped to his back?[/quote']

 

Are you actually surprised that a political advertisement was created in such a way as to promote one side of an issue over another?

[JohnB]

FWIW, from an Aussie perspective, I don't think it was a bad speech.

 

Cosine, I think you took some of it out of context. He didn't call those who opposed the war "defeatists" at all.

Yet there is a difference between honest critics who recognize what is wrong, and defeatists who refuse to see that anything is right.

He specifically referred to those to whom everything is doom and gloom.

 

In regard to not giving a timetable, that is fair enough. If either FDR or Churchill were asked in 1942 what his timetable was for WW II what would he have replied? Some jobs take as long as they take. That is the reality of some situations.

 

I think the carol reference was more because it was written during a war. The relevent lines being "the Wrong shall fail, the Right prevail, with peace on Earth, good-will to men." Isn't that a reasonable hope for any season?

 

I think the reference to the Iraqi voter was actually quite telling. Most of us live in free nations, and have done so for generations. It is instructive to realise that for some people, voting, having a say in your government is not a right. We take it for granted, many others aren't so lucky, and many of those realise just how precious the franchise is.

 

The Iraqi ex-pats I know are quite hopeful for and confident in the future of their nation.

[cosine]

Cosine' date=' I think you took some of it out of context. He didn't call those who opposed the war "defeatists" at all.

 

He specifically referred to those to whom everything is doom and gloom.[/Quote']

 

You will probably hear this term frequently, maybe not as much as flip-flop, since 250 million dollars aren't being invested into forcing it into our heads, but the fact that he's suggesting there are congressman that are "defeatists" is insinuating enough. I notice how he didn't introduce any words for blind lemming followers.

 

In regard to not giving a timetable, that is fair enough. If either FDR or Churchill were asked in 1942 what his timetable was for WW II what would he have replied? Some jobs take as long as they take. That is the reality of some situations.

 

The difference is that they actually had a timetable, which they didn't release to the public at the time, but at the time they could at least say they had "a plan." Bush actually told us his "plan," which consists of sinking more tax dollars into Halliburton and other huge companies until something good happens.

 

I think the carol reference was more because it was written during a war. The relevent lines being "the Wrong shall fail' date=' the Right prevail, with peace on Earth, good-will to men." [/i']Isn't that a reasonable hope for any season?

 

And the lines before that are "Next week American families will be gathering with their loved ones to celebrate Christmas and Hanukka." He knows full well there are many Americans that will be celebrating other holidays, but doesn't give a nod to any of them. I know it may sound odd, even plain wasteful, to waste breath on such a controversy, and I doubt that anyone here would even entertain such a debate, but if you must know, Merry Christmas Vs. Happy Holidays. Any of the first couple links will give you some info on that one.

 

And Edit: Btw, there's ridiculousness on both "sides" of the "controversy."

[entwined]

The difference is that they actually had a timetable' date=' which they didn't release to the public at the time, but at the time they could at least say they had "a plan." Bush actually told us his "plan," which consists of sinking more tax dollars into Halliburton and other huge companies until something good happens.

"[/quote']

 

I don't think an announced timetable is a good idea.

 

It would tell the insurgents what to plan for and I understand that telling the enemy what to plan for is a tactical no no.

[ecoli]

I don't think an announced timetable is a good idea.

 

It would tell the insurgents what to plan for and I understand that telling the enemy what to plan for is a tactical no no.

 

I believe cosine's point is that Bush didn't even tell us the basic outline for a timetable, or even if he has one. At least he could tell us that he has something planned, even he doesn't give us the details for security reasons.

[entwined]

I believe cosine's point is that Bush didn't even tell us the basic outline for a timetable, or even if he has one. At least he could tell us that he has something planned, even he doesn't give us the details for security reasons.

 

I'm sorry but I heard it quite differently.

 

I heard him say that as the Iraqi government becomes more self sustaining and the Iraqi military becomes more able to repel the insurgency on their own, that the US would withdraw from Iraq.

 

Isn't that a plan?

[Sisyphus]

Right, but what does that even mean? We wait around indefinitely, getting shot at, for the Iraqi military which may or may not become powerful enough not to be wiped out in what we hope will change from an occupation resistance to a civil war. In other words, keep doing what we have been, and hope everything takes care of itself.

[bascule]

Are you actually surprised that a political advertisement was created in such a way as to promote one side of an issue over another?

 

I'm surprised to see a moveon.org-style egregiously misleading Flash animation, the sort of which has been resoundingly criticized by right-wing pundits everywhere, featured on the front page of gop.com

[sarge]

I'm surprised to see a moveon.org-style egregiously misleading Flash animation, the sort of which has been resoundingly criticized by right-wing pundits everywhere, featured on the front page of gop.com

 

Why? Did you think the Republicans were "better" than the Democrats?

[sarge]

Right, but what does that even mean? We wait around indefinitely, getting shot at, for the Iraqi military which may or may not become powerful enough not to be wiped out in what we hope will change from an occupation resistance to a civil war. In other words, keep doing what we have been, and hope everything takes care of itself.

 

So what you want is indeed a timetable--right?

 

I don't thing General Casey would agree with your military planning....

[JohnB]

The difference is that they actually had a timetable, which they didn't release to the public at the time, they could at least say they had "a plan."

They did? Getting kicked out of the Phillippines was part of a plan? A diversion perhaps? The only "plan" was to defeat the enemy. To hold his advance until sufficient forces could be trained, equipped and brought to bear to defeat him on the battlefield. That sounds to me pretty much what Bush is saying.

but the fact that he's suggesting there are congressman that are "defeatists" is insinuating enough.

I didn't see any reference to congressmen in the transcript, could you point out where I missed it? It would seem logical however, that anyone with a "defeatist" or "we can't win, we might as well give up" attitude is not exactly aiding the effort of their nation.

 

I must admit, I simply took the Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuka as brevity. Say those two and you've probably covered 80% of the population. (I don't know what the demographics of the US actually are, I'm just taking a punt here. ) The other option is to drone on for 20 minutes naming every single possibility in the hopes that you haven't left someone out.

 

The Christmas/Holidays Debate.

 

We have this debate down here too. Most Aussies view it as a complete waste of time. I've yet to hear a Muslim, Jew, Buddhist or anyone from any other religion complain about "Merry Christmas", or for that matter "Happy Easter", the other time when this foolishness appears. It always seems to be someone from an Anglo-Saxon background noiseing off about possibly "offending the minorities". Guess what, they don't care.

 

Minorities celebrate their observances without any protest or interference from the Christian (supposedly) majority and they let the Christians celebrate theirs. To be frank, the only times I have ever heard the representative of any minority speak on this subject is to say just that. "We don't care, it doesn't bother us."

in what we hope will change from an occupation resistance to a civil war.

I hope that's a typo. ( I'm sure it is.)

[ecoli]

They did? Getting kicked out of the Phillippines was part of a plan?

 

the plan was victory in the European theatre and then concentrating the forces in the pacific. (I think were talking about WWII here.. right?)

 

I must admit, I simply took the Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuka as brevity. Say those two and you've probably covered 80% of the population. (I don't know what the demographics of the US actually are, I'm just taking a punt here. )

 

Jews account for about 1.3% of the population in the US, Christians account for about 76.5% (2000 values http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions)

 

Not it matters, I just wanted to point it out.