Do you believe in miracles?

[GreenDestiny]

Hi everyone!

 

I'm a rather agnostic person myself and although I wouldn't completely rule out the existence of something beyond our universe, I'm usually quite skeptical about miracle claims. But then there are some stories out there that really are quite astounding.

 

What do you think about this issue? What do you make of miracles?

 

For instance take this story: http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/amazing/healing_marlene_klepees110501.asp

 

The woman in that article, Marlene Klepees, had been handicapped since her childhood. She suffered from cerebral palsy, a disease for which there exists no cure so far. Throughout the years her condition worsened until she was at a point where she didn't even have any real control of her head or her neck.

 

But then she received a vision from God of her being healed in a church and of a date three weeks ahead. She waited, but on the day before that date nothing had happened. She then had someone open the Yellow Pages and pick out some church. They called the pastor and after she had asked him a lot of questions about what the church believed, they arranged a meeting. They finally brought her to the church where she was prayed upon and healed - there she could start walking again. Her vision improved as well, so she could take of her glasses. A few weeks later she was completely healed - all signs of previous abnormality were gone. She's living a normal life since then.

 

Another astounding thing is that in her vision she could get a clear picture of everything, so she described the church to the pastor in great detail on the phone, never having been in the church before. How could she know these details?

 

For the complete story click on the link above. What do you think about this?

[AL]

Pat Robertson's 700 Club makes claims like these pretty much every morning, and they always go unscrutinized, unchallenged, and unreported by the media. And before anyone claims the media doesn't report this because the media have a godless, secularist agenda, keep in mind one is talking about the same media that goes bonkers everytime someone sees the Virgin Mary in a carpet stain.

 

Either someone should critically examine this claim, or proponents should attempt to substantiate it rather than assert it. Until then, I don't really expect the results to be any different from that of hard-hitting investigations of Benny Hinn or John of God.

[swansont]

Define "miracle"

[GreenDestiny]

Define "miracle"

 

Anything that goes against the known laws of nature in an extreme way. Like the story I talked about above. Usually it's in a religious context, e.g. miracle healings, visions of the future, etc. Also like the story I talked about above.

[GreenDestiny]

@AL: That woman from the article, Marlene Klepees, did not only appear on the 700 Club. If you search for her name on Google you come up with other pages, e.g. this one: http://www.heavensscentflowers.com/marlene.htm

 

There's also a french website talking about her, IIRC even with a small video.

[bascule]

I think the human body is truly an amazing thing and when humans make amazing recoveries or other amazing accomplishments more is owed to the immense power of evolution by natural selection to facilitate the mechanisms for such occurances than it is anything metaphysical.

 

I mean, the placebo effect is certainly proof that mental predisposition towards healing greatly affects the outcome and that the brain possesses some sort of centralized marshalling ability for eliciting almost subconscious, involuntary control over the rest of the body's subsystems, at least to a certain extent.

[AL]

@AL: That woman from the article' date=' Marlene Klepees, did not only appear on the 700 Club. If you search for her name on Google you come up with other pages, e.g. this one: http://www.heavensscentflowers.com/marlene.htm

 

There's also a french website talking about her, IIRC even with a small video.

That website, as well as the first few dozen that turn up on Google are not critical examinations. They simply assert her claim. They are not even mainstream media outlets -- all of them are Christian evangelical sites, and there's good reason to be skeptical of them. Even the WB network (which broadcasts 700 Club and Christian Broadcasting Network where I live) puts up a disclaimer before the show saying the views expressed and the claims reported within are not the responsibility of the network, and I don't blame them for doing that.

 

It's one thing to have a case of cerebral palsy where the symptoms inexplicably dissipate. It's a whole other thing to make the inference from that to there being an all-powerful God with a son named Jesus. Someone needs to critically examine her claim, is all I'm saying. Though I suspect that calls for a critical examination would result in her supporters being offended and the critics chided for "lack of faith," as is the case with my two aforementioned favorite miracle scam healers, Benny Hinn and John of God.

 

Anything that goes against the known laws of nature in an extreme way.

Just to be sure, you do know that a law of nature is not "legislation" that things in the universe are all expected to obey, correct? A law of nature is a decription we make based on our observations. Natural laws do not get violated, but as descriptions, they can turn out to be incorrect. That said, defining miracle to be a violation of a natural law is a poor definition, as a miracle would essentially result from an inadequate description/explanation on our part (i.e. the degree to which something is a miracle is the extent to which we are ignorant of what caused it).

[ayam]

to me the human is a miraclous thing..

[the tree]

to me the human is a miraclous thing.

Amazing yes, but it doesn't go against our understanding of nature/the universe.

[ecoli]

Anything that goes against the known laws of nature in an extreme way. Like the story I talked about above. Usually it's in a religious context, e.g. miracle healings, visions of the future, etc. Also like the story I talked about above.

 

no... I don't think miricles exist. I think that anything that is a miricle is either comes from a misinterpretation of an event, or due to some physical law we don't yet understand.

[ayam]

Amazing yes, but it doesn't go against our understanding of nature/the universe.

 

hmm yeah true

 

ok interms of religion i believe the books Quran, Bible and Torah as miracles

[swansont]

Anything that goes against the known laws of nature in an extreme way. Like the story I talked about above. Usually it's in a religious context, e.g. miracle healings, visions of the future, etc. Also like the story I talked about above.

 

I don't think there's anything in that story that is inherently against the known laws of nature. Under that definition, though, I don't believe in miracles.

 

If miracles are merely unlikely events, then the answer would be yes. In fact, given the ease at which information flows these days we should hear about "miracles" quite often. Even at a rate of one event per second, a one-in-a-million event, i.e. a miracle, should happen every week or two.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

But explaining things using logic removes the fun!

[ecoli]

I don't think there's anything in that story that is inherently against the known laws of nature. Under that definition' date=' though, I don't believe in miracles.

 

If miracles are merely unlikely events, then the answer would be yes. In fact, given the ease at which information flows these days we should hear about "miracles" quite often. Even at a rate of one event per second, a one-in-a-million event, i.e. a miracle, should happen every week or two.[/quote']

 

exactly my reasoning... however, it should be noted that just because one doesn't believe in miricles, does not mean that one doesn't believe in God, or that things people think are miricles is not an 'act of God'.

[Helix]

I've heard of things that really can't be answered by science, terminal cancer disappearing and the like.

 

The catholic church, for example, checks each miracle claim with a panel of scientists, lawyers and other experts to validate the claims. It isn't, as some might think, a common thing for the Church to say a miracle has happened.

[ecoli]

I've heard of things that really can't be answered by science, terminal cancer disappearing and the like.

 

The thing is, just because we can't answer it with science now doesn't me we won't be able to in the future. According to the definition of miricle, it can't have a scientific explaination now or ever.

 

It's my personal beleif that this is not the case.

[Helix]

The thing is' date=' just because we can't answer it with science now doesn't me we won't be able to in the future. According to the definition of miricle, it can't have a scientific explaination now or ever.

 

It's my personal beleif that this is not the case.[/quote']

 

 

Yeah, that's a good point. Maybe we will know someday how things like that happen. But we know a good deal about cancer now, and nothing hints at it disappearing spontaneously.

 

And to clarify, what do you mean by "It's my personal beleif that this is not the case"?

[ecoli]

And to clarify, what do you mean by "It's my personal beleif that this is not the case"?

 

sorry, should've been clearer. I meant I personally believe that miricles don't exist, though I add the "personal belief" part, because I recognize that not everyone agree, and I'm willing to accept the fact if someone makes me see otherwise.

[Helix]

I believe in miracles because it's arrogant for us, as a species, to assume we are the highest beings and even though we can barely comprehend the universe we make accusations that we are the masters of it. (not directed at you ecoli)

[ecoli]

I believe in miracles because it's arrogant for us, as a species, to assume we are the highest beings and even though we can barely comprehend the universe we make accusations that we are the masters of it. (not directed at you ecoli)

 

indeed, but what if the universe was created by a higher power, and the physical laws were set by him, so that you can have no miricles by saying that God doesn't actively "touch" out world, but he set the ball in motion at the beginning of time, deciding how everything would be from the beginning to the end. I really see no need for miricles.

[Helix]

indeed, but what if the universe was created by a higher power, and the physical laws were set by him, so that you can have no miricles by saying that God doesn't actively "touch" out world, but he set the ball in motion at the beginning of time, deciding how everything would be from the beginning to the end. I really see no need for miricles.

 

Nice philosophy, but I would imagine that a higher being, as a sort of celestial guardian, would see fit to extend aid to those who need it. This is really a moot point now, as you and I both have logical opinions that can't be refuted.

[GreenDestiny]

I mean, the placebo effect is certainly proof that mental predisposition towards healing greatly affects the outcome and that the brain possesses some sort of centralized marshalling ability for eliciting almost subconscious, involuntary control over the rest of the body's subsystems, at least to a certain extent.

 

Yes, I also had thoughts along those lines. What do you think how her knowledge of that church she gained from her vision could be explained? According to the article she described it in great detail to the pastor...

[GreenDestiny]

That website, as well as the first few dozen that turn up on Google are not critical examinations. They simply assert her claim. They are not even mainstream media outlets -- all of them are Christian evangelical sites, and there's good reason to be skeptical of them.

 

Yes, that's true, but I wanted to say that at least it wasn't only shown on the 700 Club, but that she also told her story elsewhere.

 

Even the WB network (which broadcasts 700 Club and Christian Broadcasting Network where I live) puts up a disclaimer before the show saying the views expressed and the claims reported within are not the responsibility of the network, and I don't blame them for doing that.

 

Oh, interesting, I didn't know that. But from what I've read, that Pat Robertson guy sometimes makes very wild claims, like being able to steer hurricanes away from his company by prayer. *g*

 

Someone needs to critically examine her claim, is all I'm saying. Though I suspect that calls for a critical examination would result in her supporters being offended and the critics chided for "lack of faith," as is the case with my two aforementioned favorite miracle scam healers, Benny Hinn and John of God.

 

That might be true... on the other hand, if she stayed in a hospital, there must be records, so at least I don't think that her whole illness story is made up. The name of the hospital is even mentioned in the article.

 

What do you think how those events could be explained in a natural way? Like her precognition of the church...

 

Just to be sure, you do know that a law of nature is not "legislation" that things in the universe are all expected to obey, correct? A law of nature is a decription we make based on our observations. Natural laws do not get violated, but as descriptions, they can turn out to be incorrect. That said, defining miracle to be a violation of a natural law is a poor definition, as a miracle would essentially result from an inadequate description/explanation on our part (i.e. the degree to which something is a miracle is the extent to which we are ignorant of what caused it).

 

Yes, of course I know that. I just wanted to write down a short definition, but it's not that easy to keep it short and accurate at the same time.

How would you define the term 'miracle' then? Maybe the involvement of something 'supernatural' could be required. But then one could ask, how do you define supernatural?

[GreenDestiny]

Yeah, that's a good point. Maybe we will know someday how things like that happen. But we know a good deal about cancer now, and nothing hints at it disappearing spontaneously.

 

Well, maybe cancer might be a bad example. Especially of cancer it is known that rare cases of spontaneous remission exist. Not all of them are connected to some religious miracle story, sometimes it just goes back on its own. The reason for this is not known yet, I think.

[AL]

Yes' date=' of course I know that. I just wanted to write down a short definition, but it's not that easy to keep it short and accurate at the same time.

How would you define the term 'miracle' then? Maybe the involvement of something 'supernatural' could be required. But then one could ask, how do you define supernatural? [/quote']

I don't have a concept of supernatural or miracle. However, as I've seen the notion used by others, I do not find them to be coherent, meaningful or useful. When someone says a law of nature has been broken, the reasonable conclusion to draw is that the law of nature needs to be revised to account for this exception, not to say that some supernatural being had intervened to "violate" what is little more than our own description of our universe. Furthermore, if there were a supernatural being that intervened, it would be a misappelation to call it supernatural, since clearly it interacts with our natural world, and so it is itself natural. To say that there is a thing which interacts with the natural world and is not natural makes for a very nebulous definition of natural that isn't very useful.