White Blood Cells; Our Mini Me

[sunspot]

If one looks at our own white bloods cells, these are sophisticated single cellular lifeforms that contains our entire DNA. In that sense, they represent little single cell versions of us or our Mini Me's. Here is an interesting thought that is the fodder for sci-fi. Picture a planet that has evolved single cellular life to the point where they have the sophistication of our white blood cells. Since their DNA, like the DNA in our white blood cells, contains everything needed for an entire multicellular lifeform, these single cells begin to evolve and change into multicellular trial balloons, from which simple multicellular animals begin to appear from the slime.

[Nevermore]

They do not have our entire DNA. Cells have thier own.

[sunspot]

All cells in our bodies have the same DNA. The DNA that is not used is packed away with packing proteins. The white blood cells only use a narrow range of the genes in their active states but still have all the rest of the genes in latent potential.

[ecoli]

If one looks at our own white bloods cells, these are sophisticated single cellular lifeforms that contains our entire DNA. In that sense, they represent little single cell versions of us or our Mini Me's. Here is an interesting thought that is the fodder for sci-fi. Picture a planet that has evolved single cellular life to the point where they have the sophistication of our white blood cells. Since their DNA, like the DNA in our white blood cells, contains everything needed for an entire multicellular lifeform, these single cells begin to evolve and change into multicellular trial balloons, from which simple multicellular animals begin to appear from the slime.

 

not limited to white blood cells, as had been stated.

[Helix]

All cells have the whole genome. Your arguement could be used on any cell. The reason why a muscle cell is different than, say, a neuron is because different genes are expressed.

[rakuenso]

i would hardly call that a representation of us. White blood cells have already undergone hematopoesis and are no longer pluripotent. Sure they have our DNA, but that's not gonna help us much.

[sunspot]

Good, that is the conclusion I hoped you would reach. It shows that DNA of itself is not sufficient to explain progression into mulicellular lifeforms even though all the needed genes may be present. In fact, if one took the DNA out of the white blood cells, and disrupted the rest of the cell into separated proteins, even with all the separated proteins left in tack, the DNA would be useless for reassembling a viable cell from the blend. The DNA is the harddrive of the cell, but it only functions due to the operating system within the rest of the cell or within the rest of the body. A good experiment might be to take out the DNA harddrive from a cell and transplant another similar DNA harddrive. The cell should still work.

[Helix]

DNA can explain complex life; humans have far more complex genes than C. elegans. The reason we are more advanced than white cells, even though we share DNA, is because we are trillions of cellls put together with varying genes being expressed. White cells are one type of single cell.

[the tree]

Good, that is the conclusion I hoped you would reach.

Manipulative little fucker aren't you? Don't be.

It shows that DNA of itself is not sufficient to explain progression into mulicellular lifeforms even though all the needed genes may be present.

What's your point? Of course progression from a zygote to an embryo takes a lot of different protiens and resources.

In fact, if one took the DNA out of the white blood cells, and disrupted the rest of the cell into separated proteins, even with all the separated proteins left in tack, the DNA would be useless for reassembling a viable cell from the blend.

Again, what's your point? DNA is there to tell the cell what to do, not what its made of.

The DNA is the harddrive of the cell, but it only functions due to the operating system within the rest of the cell or within the rest of the body.

Urm, you know where your operating system is most likely to reside?

A good experiment might be to take out the DNA harddrive from a cell and transplant another similar DNA harddrive. The cell should still work.

Possibly, but that doesn't show anything.

[sunspot]

If we look at a fertilized ovuum, if it is taken out of the body, it will only go so far and stop. What it is lacking is not DNA, but the chemical gradients that allows the cells to differentiate. The only gradient the fertiized ovuum had was due to the sperm/ovuum combo which is very limiting in potential. If we next place it into a nutrient gradient, the cells will differntiate into a cellular gradient between embryotic nervous and circulatory tissue. Within this primary gradient, secondary gradients will also form, from which the rest of the cell will differentiate. The DNA harddrive has all the data needed for this progression, by the operating system is composed of the chemical gradients.

 

If one placed one our mini me white blood cells in the proper chemical gradient we could theoretically get it to differentiate into a simple multicellular gradient. If there is enough potential between these two simple states, subgradients would also form.

 

The link between these gradients and the DNA is connected to the hydrogen proton and hydrogen bonding. This is the one variable, that is everywhere within all cells and within all multicellular organizations. At the same time, with the hydrogen proton the fastest thing in water, (100 times faster than any ion or chmeical) it can theoretically transmit potentials and gradients before any chemical agents are able to diffuse. This gets the DNA and cells integrated and ready for the chemical trains.

[Sisyphus]

If we look at a fertilized ovuum, if it is taken out of the body, it will only go so far and stop. What it is lacking is not DNA, but the chemical gradients that allows the cells to differentiate. The only gradient the fertiized ovuum had was due to the sperm/ovuum combo which is very limiting in potential. If we next place it into a nutrient gradient, the cells will differntiate into a cellular gradient between embryotic nervous and circulatory tissue. Within this primary gradient, secondary gradients will also form, from which the rest of the cell will differentiate. The DNA harddrive has all the data needed for this progression, by the operating system is composed of the chemical gradients.

 

So in other words, the fertilized ovum needs nutrients to survive? That it can't magically grow out of nothing? What is your point, exactly?

 

If one placed one our mini me white blood cells in the proper chemical gradient we could theoretically get it to differentiate into a simple multicellular gradient. If there is enough potential between these two simple states, subgradients would also form.

 

No more than any other cell, which is not much. Immersed in the proper nutrients, constanty being refreshed (standing in for the circulatory system) and in the proper environment, the white blood cell will go about its metabolic functions, and divide into other white blood cells. If you know a way of turning them into stem cells, I'd love to hear that, as well as why your method only works with white blood cells.

 

The link between these gradients and the DNA is connected to the hydrogen proton and hydrogen bonding. This is the one variable, that is everywhere within all cells and within all multicellular organizations. At the same time, with the hydrogen proton the fastest thing in water, (100 times faster than any ion or chmeical) it can theoretically transmit potentials and gradients before any chemical agents are able to diffuse. This gets the DNA and cells integrated and ready for the chemical trains.

 

You probably want to paraphrase that in a way that makes some sense.

[AL]

All cells in our bodies have the same DNA.

Even red blood cells?

 

Good, that is the conclusion I hoped you would reach. It shows that DNA of itself is not sufficient to explain progression into mulicellular lifeforms even though all the needed genes may be present. In fact, if one took the DNA out of the white blood cells, and disrupted the rest of the cell into separated proteins, even with all the separated proteins left in tack, the DNA would be useless for reassembling a viable cell from the blend. The DNA is the harddrive of the cell, but it only functions due to the operating system within the rest of the cell or within the rest of the body. A good experiment might be to take out the DNA harddrive from a cell and transplant another similar DNA harddrive. The cell should still work.

If we look at a fertilized ovuum' date=' if it is taken out of the body, it will only go so far and stop. What it is lacking is not DNA, but the chemical gradients that allows the cells to differentiate. The only gradient the fertiized ovuum had was due to the sperm/ovuum combo which is very limiting in potential. If we next place it into a nutrient gradient, the cells will differntiate into a cellular gradient between embryotic nervous and circulatory tissue. Within this primary gradient, secondary gradients will also form, from which the rest of the cell will differentiate. The DNA harddrive has all the data needed for this progression, by the operating system is composed of the chemical gradients.

 

If one placed one our mini me white blood cells in the proper chemical gradient we could theoretically get it to differentiate into a simple multicellular gradient. If there is enough potential between these two simple states, subgradients would also form.

 

The link between these gradients and the DNA is connected to the hydrogen proton and hydrogen bonding. This is the one variable, that is everywhere within all cells and within all multicellular organizations. At the same time, with the hydrogen proton the fastest thing in water, (100 times faster than any ion or chmeical) it can theoretically transmit potentials and gradients before any chemical agents are able to diffuse. This gets the DNA and cells integrated and ready for the chemical trains.[/quote'] So what you are saying is that DNA doesn't do anything by itself without the aid of cellular machinery such as ribosomes and without proper chemical nutrition to the cell? If so, that's hardly a profound revelation. If not, you're going to need to more clearly express what you are trying to say.

[rakuenso]

What the hell is your point? It seems like all you did was chop up random sentences from a textbook and tried to paste them together so that they made sense. I have no idea what your point is supposed to be. Quit your allusions and metaphorical expressions, this isn't english class.

[sunspot]

Sorry for the confusion. The point I was trying to make is that the genetics is not the most fundamental principle of life. It is a spectrum of possibilities but it does not direct its own expression, but rather it is reactionary. Even genetic progression is reactionary to other potentials. The animal learns to adapt and eventually it becomes part of the species' DNA.

 

The second point is that the cell and the reactionary activity of the DNA is expressed by chemicals. However, these chemicals are also reactionary to a more fundamental integration potential within the cell. This is the integration of the hydrogen proton via hydrogen bonding. I felt the need to loosen things up a little before I could address these possibilities.

[Sisyphus]

Sorry for the confusion. The point I was trying to make is that the genetics is not the most fundamental principle of life.

 

Define "most fundamental principle of life."

 

It is a spectrum of possibilities but it does not direct its own expression, but rather it is reactionary.

 

By this I take you to mean that cells with different functions in our body have the same DNA. True. And that what form the cell takes is dependant on factors besides the DNA. Half-true. A cell's function is determined by it's place in the development of the organism, but that development is determined by its DNA. Is that all you're saying?

 

Even genetic progression is reactionary to other potentials. The animal learns to adapt and eventually it becomes part of the species' DNA.

 

What it sounds like you're saying is that different DNA doesn't cause change, it merely records it, or something. That isn't true. You change a gene, you change the trait. This is demonstrable. If you meant something else, please explain.

 

The second point is that the cell and the reactionary activity of the DNA is expressed by chemicals. However, these chemicals are also reactionary to a more fundamental integration potential within the cell. This is the integration of the hydrogen proton via hydrogen bonding. I felt the need to loosen things up a little before I could address these possibilities.

 

This still doesn't make any sense. What does hydrogen bonding have to do with anything?

[zyncod]

Odd that you would pick white blood cells, since these cells are the only ones in the body to undergo targeted recombination. The DNA in white blood cells (well, the lymphocytes anyway) is unlike that of any other cell in the body due to genomic shuffling involved in antibody production. If you had picked muscle cells, or pancreatic islet cells, or basically any other cell type in the body, you might have had a point. But if you cloned someone from a lymphocyte, you would have somebody with a severe immune deficiency.

[sunspot]

It is interesting that lymphocytes undergo genetic reshuffling. This is a good demonstration of the DNA being reactionary to the needs of the environment. It also begins to show the impact of equilibrium hydrogen bonding potential.

 

The universal/integrating substance of a cell, that is both inside and outside the cell, is water. The properties of water are based on hydrogen bonding such that anything dissolved within water will have an impact on the hydrogen bonding potential within the local and universal water. If we look at all the active biomaterials within cells, i.e., DNA, RNA, proteins, their structures and properties are not only based on hydrogen bonding, but they are all orientated, within the water, with their active hydrophilic groups on the surface with the water. Through the water, these materials interact via their hydrogen bonding.

 

If we look at the cell membrane of a simplied cell, the sodium pumps will create a potential across the membrane with the outside surface slightly positive and the inside slightly negative. Relative to the aqueous hydrogen bonding potential, the outside potential increases the aqueous hydrogen bonding potential outside the cell due to the competition for the electrons of the oxygen of water. The inside membrane potential lowers the aqueous hydrogen bonding potential within the cell.

 

Outside the cell, this amplified aqueous hydrogen bonding potential signal, due to the sodium pumps, is transmitted into the external water and will help draw food materials toward the cell. This is due to surface tension within water. In other words, a hydrophobic material dissolved in water will prevent the local aqueous hydrogen bonds from optimizing, thereby increasing the aqueous hydrogen bonding potential at the water/hydrophobic surface. As such, with the exterior membrane surface defining high aqueous hydrogen bonding potential, it will also define equilibrium for high surface tension materials. This causes energy rich hydrophobic food objects to want to stick to the outside of the cell.

 

If we go into the cell, the DNA molecules are extremely large molecules with negatively charged phosphate groups as part of its backbone. Unpacked DNA will be repulsive to the negative charge on the inside of the cell membrane, assuring its position away from the inside of the cell membrane. But the DNA is rarely totally unpacked (except during DNA duplication) but will usually exist packed with histone packing proteins. The histones have a positively charged group which will bond to and neutralize the negatively charged phosphate groups. Histones also contain additional hydrogen bonding hydrogen residues which can not hydrogen bond effectively within the DNA packing arrangement. The latter will cause the hydrogen bonding potential of the DNA packing composite to increase. The DNA is composed of very large molecules such that even if only part of it is packed, the effects of the packing will extend to the entire molecule via the local water. This provides potential for unpacked genes to lower their higher induced potential via transcription.

 

The net result of the histone packing is that the DNA will define a higher hydrogen bonding potential than the inside of the cell membrane. This will create an aqueus hydrogen bonding potential gradient between the membrane and the DNA. The rest of the large materials within the cell will define equilbrium positions within this primary gradient, where everything is integrated via the water.

 

When materials are transported into the cell, not only does the local membrane potential reverse, transmitting high aquoeus hydrogen bonding potential signals into the cell, but the food materials will also need to find an equilbrium zone within the gradient. These affects will pertubate the gradient resulting in an integrated hydrogen bonding reponse by the cell. This will include altering the hydrogen bonding potential of the DNA. The result will be the needed genetic expression to address the food input.

 

It is well known that the DNA is pertubated via chemicals and enzymes. But the movement of these materials and the composites they create are reactionary and will help define the needed hydrogen bonding changes within the aqueous gradient. The hydrogen bonding pertubation comes first due to the hydrogen proton being the fastest entity in water. The existance of pH shows the hydrogen of water are not covalantly fixed but have some degree of mobility. Their faster speed is due to their lack of a cumbersome hydration sphere (extended water stuck to all other ions and molecules dissolved in water).

 

Relative to the DNA, an aqueous hydrogen bonding signal will alter the hydrogen bonding potential of a packed gene. This potential cannot unpack the gene due to the steric hindrance, but it can potentiate a particular packed gene requiring an enzyme composite to help it define the proper equilibrium. DNA geometry (due to a hydrogen bonding gradient between the centromere and nuclear membrane) will help set up a configurational hierarchy for gene potentiating.

 

If we go back to our lymphocytes, the shuffling of genes implies an induction into a new DNA structural hydrogen bonding geometry. This places the needed genes where they can become more easily primed for the needed immune response. The extra potential for the DNA reshuffling comes from the external environment and is impacted, in part, by the high aqueous hydrogen bonding signals stemming from nervous tissue. Multicellular configurations are also integrated via water with larger composites like organs, being an analogy to cellular structures. The primary gradient of a multicellular animal is between the nervous tissue and the blood supply. This is inferred by nerve cells having the highest external membrane potentials (positive) and the blood supply being slightly alkaline due, in part, to the negatively charged bicarbonate ions.

[the tree]

I smell...

[AL]

I still can't make heads or tails of your posts, Sunspot. Do you have a point, or do you just like sounding like an out-of-context excerpt from a first-draft, unedited textbook manuscript? The only way people can respond to your posts is to nitpick one or two of your sentences here and there, because your sentences taken altogether do not appear to have a point.

[bascule]

I smell...[img']http://fails.org/pnt.png[/img]

 

Nice.

 

I still can't make heads or tails of your posts, Sunspot. Do you have a point, or do you just like sounding like an out-of-context excerpt from a first-draft, unedited textbook manuscript? The only way people can respond to your posts is to nitpick one or two of your sentences here and there, because your sentences taken altogether do not appear to have a point.

 

He seems to ramble on mixing truth with total fabrications, and won't accept any explanations you give him but will instead continue to argue and make up stuff as he goes.

 

It's really frustrating.

[rakuenso]

i smell a creationist

[Twerpy]

I also don't see how it applies to previous posts other than maybe perhaps

What does hydrogen bonding have to do with anything?

. If so it seems this is just a long winded way of saying 'hydrogen bonding does effect DNA in one way or another.'

 

Forgive me if i missed something in the huge depths of that epic post but it seems to me that sunspot is just trying to redeem himself by writing long involved posts which have only the very slightest relevence to the topic.

 

I smell...

Productive. Very productive

[sunspot]

Let me summarize. I started with the comment that our white blood cells contain our DNA. In a silly sense, they are us as a single cellular organism. I then posulated the sci fi theory that full multicellular animals could appear from these since they have all the needed DNA. It was pointed out that this was not viable. The conclusion I then reached was that the DNA of itself (even though mini me has our entire DNA) is not sufficient to express its own genetic potential, or else a mini me could form a full human.

 

Since the DNA is not at the top of the heap, other potentials are more fundamental. Theoretically, maybe in the future, we can take a white blood and induce it to become a full human. Stem cell research starts with easier to manipulate cells and may someday not require stem cells. The overall conclusion was that above the DNA are chemical potentials that we can add to stem cell, etc., to bring out the potential in the DNA.

 

Zyncod then pointed out how lymphocytes reshuffle their DNA. This was good example how chemical potentials reach a state of uncertainty. One may trace the shuffling to chemicals but how do these know exactly where to cut and paste. The how is explainable with chemicals but the why needs another layer of potential.

 

This is where I began my long winded attempt to teach the importance of hydrogen bonding. Hydrogen bonding does not just hold things together, which is does, but it is also a dynamic variable, such as occurs during transcription. I tried to show how it is the basis for the properties of water and how water is everywhere within the cell. It seems reasonable to me that the hydrogen bonding within the cell is somehow integrated and coordinated. If one uses this simple premise, many of the whys, such as genetic reshuffling have easy explanations.

[the tree]

The conclusion I then reached was that the DNA of itself (even though mini me has our entire DNA) is not sufficient to express its own genetic potential,

DNA is genes

or else a mini me could form a full human.

Like, cloning?

Since the DNA is not at the top of the heap, other potentials are more fundamental.

So you saying that because you can't build a car from a spark plug then fuel injection is more fundamental? How's that work?

Theoretically, maybe in the future, we can take a white blood and induce it to become a full human.

Yeh, but as mentioned, they'd have a severe imune deficiency. You'd have better luck from any other cell?

Stem cell research starts with easier to manipulate cells and may someday not require stem cells.

Then it wouldn't be stem cell research would it?

The overall conclusion was that above the DNA are chemical potentials that we can add to stem cell, etc., to bring out the potential in the DNA.

Now you know that sentance doesn't make sense.

This is where I began my long winded attempt to teach the importance of hydrogen bonding....

Why'd it have to be so long winded. I bet I could bring it down to one sentance: when a compound involves in hydrogen in any way whatso ever, you can bet hydrogen bonding has something to do with it.

[sunspot]

You guys seem to lack imagination. You are so busy knit picking that you have a difficult time grasping new concepts. Maybe if I type slower, which is hard to do since I type with two fingers.

 

I have attempted in the past to point out the importance of hydrogen bonding for cellular integration, but everyone seems to go into a state of denial rather that attempt to understand where I am coming from. That is why I decided to loosen the bias of tradition. So I will try one more time.

 

1) The main component within a cell is water

 

2) The physcal and chemical properties of water are dependant on hydrogen bonding.

 

3) All the bioactive materials within a cell are dependant on hydrogen bonding

 

4) Hydrogen bonding defines the properties of DNA, RNA, and proteins

 

5) Hydrogen bonding is both static (fix structure) and dynamic (reversal hydrogen bonding as occurs on the DNA).

 

6) If one removed hydrogen bonding from a cell it would stop functioning

 

7) Most of chemistry is based on the electron, while the living state is based on both the electron and proton

 

8) The fastest entity in water is the hydrogen proton. It can travel about 100 times faster that any ion.

 

9) Cellular modeling can be simplifed by modeling the cell in terms of this one universal variable that is everywhere within the cell.

 

10) This single variable is also everywhere within multicellular life

 

11) Modelling life in terms of hydrogen bonding does not preclude the science that already exists. It does however, simplies things so that one can make rational predictions.