Evolution or Training?

[YT2095]

An interesting thing happened while was messing about with an InfraRed signal jammer.

the LED emiter I could actualy SEE a faint deep red glow, but my web-cam sees it as a blue/grey very bright light. the LED must be very powerfull and leak a little into the visible Red band.

 

If someone was brought up in pure darkness with only LED lights like the jammer light, would they eventualy adapt and see with it. I without any training, can already see a little bit as can others I`ve tried it with (some cannot for some reason?). would our eyes take this little bit of light and extend further towards the brighter IR part in order to see?

 

I`ve heard of folks that go blind and after several years than can hear things that we can`t. could the same apply?

[Kedas]

not a medical opinion:

I don't think our eyes would adapt noticable but our brain could probably learn to filter the right info better.

 

Just to clear something up:

LED= Light Emitting Diode

Soo LED doesn't mean IR or UV or visual light.

[YT2095]

yeah, it`s a high powered Inrfa-Red (IR) Light Emiting Diode(LED).

 

Good point Kedas

[blike]

but my web-cam sees it as a blue/grey very bright light.

 

Point your webcam at your remote control for your television and then hit a button to change the chanel or something. I dunno what causes it, but thats how the cameras pick up the IR.

[YT2095]

yeah that`s how I used it to test that all my assorted IR LEDs were working and batts in the remotes

 

YT2095 selects <Cheat Mode>

[blike]

lol, do you know what causes that?

 

As regards to your original question:

 

I think there are degrees of sensitivity. In other words, if you grew up with only exposure to certain types of things, you would be much more sensitive to them. However, I don't think that for example you would see IR because your body has adapted to see the light.

[YT2095]

yeah, and you`ll usualy find the cheaper the cam the more range (frequency) you`ll get. it`s do with the quality/purity of the silicon doping in the CCD`s, the more impurities the broader the band it`ll look at, specific devices exploit this and so you get IR specific CCD`s that the firemen use and rescue workers etc...

 

could/would your body adapt over years though? I know it would be a cruel experiment to try on any living thing sure, but it would sure be interesting to find out

 

Another thing (yes probably VERY stupid I`m sure) but when shining this IR light (that you can hardly see) into one eye, I noticed that there was a distinct difference in my vision! it lasted about 2 mins, but it was a bit like being out of focus and things seemed difficult to see, a bit like walking indoors after being in bright sun, but without the darkening effect? so eyes CAN detect something? (I tried on both eyes in case it was fluke).

[fafalone]

It's not likely that your eyes would "adapt" to see IR light (though if a group was put into an environment with predominantly IR light, they would adapt over many generations), however it is possible to engineer IR detection into an eye. It just depends on the proteins present within the eye, and IR sensitive proteins are present in many animals. So in theory, a human could be genetically engineered to be able to see in the infrared range.

 

As to shining IR light into your eye, it's the same type of energy so while there will be no visible reaction, the energy will effect the cells in your eye.

[YT2095]

So... it would be possible to see IR light with the correct proteins (that we have anyway but not enough to be usable)?

 

A group that was bread in that environ would produce eventualy (IR seeing beings). would that involve a random gene that allowed that person to see more succesfully and therfore re-produce, or would it just happen anyway gradualy over time?

 

Could someone be "injected" with these proteins within a lifetime and appreciate the benefits of it, maybe only slight? a bit like "carrots help you see in the dark" tale.?

 

And, Is it the rods or cones in your eye that picks up the near IR?

I recon it`s the cones as they deal with color, but could be wrong?

 

[NavajoEverclear]

i can see all parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. I can also see dead people.

 

 

BTW do you guys think my crap comments like this are occasionaly slightly amusing, or just a stupid attempt to appear abstracting intelligent via humor.

[Glider]

It would be rods. Cones are sensitive to specific sections of the spectrum, and light falling outside those wavelengths won't trigger reactions in cone cells. Rod cells however are less specific and generally more sensitive. Plus, there are many more of them.

[YT2095]

So with the right proteins in the rods, we could enhance our ability to see IR and wouldn`t necesarily need a specialised sense organ for it. but since it would be the rods we`de just see it as white light (a bit like the cam does).

and the vague deep red color, is just leakage into the visible spectrum that my CONES detect?

so it`s nothing really at all to do with IR?

 

Kinda makes a little sense now

[Glider]

That's about it.

 

Some fish, goldfish and piranha for example, can see in infra red.

[NSX]

So is it different proteins in dog's eyes that make them colourblind as well?

[fafalone]

Yes, or rather lack thereof.

[YT2095]

I`ve heard that some snakes can too Rattlesnakes for sure can.

I`ve tried my cats with this IR light, I can`t make up my mind if they can see it or not, are they just ignoring me whilst thinking "he`s a complete nut case" or they just can`t see it, and when they seem to be able to, could it be sound that`s making their heads move tracking me with ears instead?

It`s a very high output on this IR transmitter, I can blind my web-cam with it across a room, so I`m sure if they could see it, they`de look away?

 

Glider, are there any foods that you know off that contain this protein or would act as a co-enzyme to enhance already existing proteins? carrots I`ve heard help, but I`m not sure if it`s and old wives tale or not

[Sayonara]

Rattlesnakes don't see in infra-red, they have 2mm-wide pits in the skin on their face that are able to detect heat. It's a separate mechanism to the eyes.

 

Something tells me you are going to have trouble finding food with a suitable protein in it, much less get that protein - intact - from your digestive system into the rods in your eyes.

[YT2095]

soz, I thought they did, probably got it wrong with detect as opposed to see.

 

as for the foods, I don`t see why not? we know that certain foods contain certain reactants that do have a physiological effect upon our systems, surely that could also be possible on the possitive side of things too?

we know that methanol oxidises to formaldehyde and affects the optic nerve to send you blind, and that Vit C can be a very good anti-oxidant and both survive the digestive acid HCl(aq) quite well.

Don`t get me wrong, I`m thinking that eating `X` so many times a week will make see IR, but surely there`s foods that will assist in this protein production, even if it`s only to slow it`s decay over time?

[Sayonara]

Sayonara³ said in post #17 :

Something tells me you are going to have trouble finding food with a suitable protein in it.

[YT2095]

but it doesn`t NEED that protein as it is, just the precursors

[Sayonara]

Biology-less biology doesn't "just happen" because you want it to.

 

There's no existing mechanism for what you are trying to do. "If we had these proteins in our eyes, we would be able to see IR" does not mean you can just squirt a load of junk into your eyes (or eat lots of potatoes - whichever) and grow a whole new organ. It still assumes adaptive radiation.

[YT2095]

fact is (as I understand it from here) that we all have these proteins within our eyes, to a greater or lesser extent, they do exist, but not in sufficient quantities that enable use to perceive IR radiation. using the old maxim "we are what we eat" (and to some extent that holds true) is not possible that these proteins couldn`t be built upon by at least slowing thier decay rate and therefore haveing more working ones at any given time?

[Sayonara]

There's a big difference between having a protein in a certain place; and having a working mechanism with all the correct biochemical pathways, neural pathways, and processing capability.

[YT2095]

I recon the human mind could quickly adapt if all of a sudden we could see a little into the IR section of the EM spectrum, I mean it`s not like a HUGE leap or anything, we can already FEEL (touch sense) Black body radiation, it just means that we`de be able to see a little of it too. pathways,,, Hmmm... I don`t think that would really be an issue in all honesty, although given many generations with this ability it would indeed become "hardwired" into us I expect.

[Sayonara]

OK, whatever, proteins can randomly aggregate in the eye and beam heat pictures into your brain.

 

Come here and I'll put some protein in your eyes for you. I hope you're not afraid of needles ::evilgrin::