Perpetual Motion

[swansont]

...thus reducing greatly the energy used from the battery.

 

Nothing perpetual here. There's still a battery.

[srdickens]

You say still a battery, this one little 1.5 v battery which was a weak battery in the first place, has been running this motor nonstop for 14 days and its still going fast and no noticeable loss of battery voltage. Its what is added to the motors rotor that allows it to run nonstop this long. Maybe you dont know much about motors or how fast motors will drain batteries down and Im useing a single battery. Do some personal experiments or research then you will understand what is really said here.

[Ophiolite]

So are you planning on running a control? Same motor type and battery, etc, but no acitive ingredient? See how long that lasts.

[bascule]

Why do you think electrons are being "released" from the crystal? Even if this were the case, its supply of them is finite; the crystal can't magically make electrons out of nowhere... and your analysis of the device's operation would be benefitted if you observed something more than "it's been running for X amount of time" since depending on the characteristics of the device that really doesn't mean anything, especially without a control to compare to

[swansont]

Do some personal experiments or research then you will understand what is really said here.

 

I understand what is being said here. There's a power source. It's not perpetual motion. As amazing as you might find it, there are no laws of physics being broken here.

 

From the aspect ratio it looks to be a C or D cell battery. I know that AA batteries can exceed 3000 mAh of capacity, which would deliver ~10 mA for two weeks. Not much load on the battery, and it delivers 15 mW. Scale that up by a factor of three or more for the battery size maybe.

[buzsaw]

What about the entire universe?

 

I suppose my universe hypothesis comes close to that. It jives with a literal rendering of the Genesis account and it satisfies the thermodynamic laws, imo, topping the BB for the 1st law, since with this, energy and matter had no singularity/beginning as with BB.

 

In Jehovah God's Universe; time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence.

[JohnB]

Sorry to come in late.

What you may have, is a way of tapping into an existing energy source that is not apparent.

I have often wondered along similar lines. It may be possible to create an apparent PM machine without breaking any laws.

 

To give a hypothetical example. (And some definitions for it. )

 

If there were parallel universes, and if there was a way to bleed energy from one universe to another. From the POV of "Universe" (meaning the entirety of all universes) there would be no exception to Thermodynamics as the total energy of all the universes would remain the same.

 

However, from the POV of those in the receiving universe, (the observeable universe) there would be an apparent increase in energy, thus apparently breaking laws of physics.

 

Hence it might be possible (from the POV of the observable universe) to create an "over unity" device.

 

While I don't think this has been done, nor do I have any idea about how it may be done, I believe it may be possible. Such a machine is only possible/impossible depending on your frame of reference.

[ski_power]

[sarcasm] Hey I created a perpetual Motion machine that works at 1000% efficiency, it takes electricity from the socket and creates lots more. I'm currently distributing it to the Electricity board, and i'm getting richer day by day. Bill Gates, here I come. [/sarcasm]

[buzsaw]

I understand what is being said here. There's a power source. It's not perpetual motion. As amazing as you might find it, there are no laws of physics being broken here.

 

Maybe a motion enhancement machine? Would it be useful in improving on electric vehicles?

[swansont]

Maybe a motion enhancement machine?[/i'] Would it be useful in improving on electric vehicles?

 

It has yet to be demonstrated that the device is more efficient as constructed, vs having some other load on the motor. Nothing has actually been measured, so it's difficult to make any comparisons. IOW, no real science has happened.

[reverse]

You say still a battery, this one little 1.5 v battery which was a weak battery in the first place, has been running this motor nonstop for 14 days and its still going fast and no noticeable loss of battery voltage. Its what is added to the motors rotor that allows it to run nonstop this long. Maybe you dont know much about motors or how fast motors will drain batteries down and Im useing a single battery. Do some personal experiments or research then you will understand what is really said here.

 

I'm curious.

I would like to repeat your experiment to see it with my own eyes.

Can you get me as many measurements and any other technical specifics.

also where was the crystal mined, etc etc.

thanks.

[reverse]

If what you are saying is correct then two things bother me.

 

First is the way magnetic fields obey the inverse square law...in other words they get very weak once you go only a small distance away from the magnetic material.

 

secondly, if that crystal is flooding the environment with some form of energy, and that energy is able to somehow effect the dry cell or the motor, that must be a great amount of energy.

 

You may find yourself in the same position as the Curies.

 

please see here.

http://www.aip.org/history/curie/resbr1.htm

 

can you get Geiger counter?

[Wiggle]

lol...

Nah I'm sorry PM don't work, or at least not in the sense everyone wants it to.

As far as free energy for everyone is concerned:

The best, in my mind, we can hope for is the Illusion of PM which is much easier and works just as well. (if everyone thinks its PM then it might as well be, who can say otherwise)

Or another idea is using humans as an energy producer, although not strictly PM it might as well be, i don't think we will be running out of it anytime soon.

As far as "This thing here is moving.It has been for many years. But we can't go near it, touch it or take any energy away from it."

Then yeah it can be done, but whats the point.

 

This aside i still want to see any complete models anyone has...if it works i'll happily be your manager.

[gnpatterson]

In mathematics there is a conventional form of proof, ie. proof by contradiction

 

You can prove something is true by taking the opposite and showing that it leads to an impossiblity. The technical discussion of perpetual motion is really a pointless one since it really ends up by saying that if energy can be created from nothing (rather than from a unknown source) energy cannot be measured, if it is not conserved, then it simply does not exist as a quantity and is not real (like money).

 

However the idea of perpetual motion is interesting more as a psychological phenomena.

 

the hope in peoples minds that has been generated by the idea over hundreds of years is evidence of something that has to happening at a biological level.

 

it must indicate that humans are evolved to keep on trying things they know wont work, it is like thumping a broken television when you know it isnt even plugged in.

 

I know I have done things knowing they wont work but being unable to stiffle the hope, I found the action happening almost without willing it.

 

It is so natural in humans that people have conned investors out of money when the people handing it over have said, "we know it wont work but if it did we will be very rich"

 

Humans can similaneously doubt and believe something at the same time and invest their money or biological future in the possibility that they are wrong. they will deliberately invest in risk to the point of stupidity.

 

They are not the only animals that do this.

 

an experiment with turkeys found that they would open containers that they would be effectively punished for opening even when they had "learnt" not to do it.

 

It just illustrates to me that the evolution of life depends on a great deal of conterintuitive processes.

 

It may in fact be hopeless but what is even more amazing is the attempt by people to reason with the "believers". Again this seems to be an incrediblily difficult to understand action. It is so altruistic, to try and teach another person miles away through a bulletin board that there is a way they can improve their life (i.e. by not wasting it in activities that over-reach the likely success). These people are equally failling to learn the lesson of history and science that you cant stop people creating pertpetual motion machines.

 

PS here is my arguement against perpetual motion machines (it is not serious)

 

If you could create a machine that created energy you can also creat a machine that destroyed energy. Imagine a machine that if pushed energy into it, it would disappear, no heat generated, no sound spilling out just energy going in and being destroyed. (also no mass being created, i don't want you thinking this is a "real" black hole)

 

What would happen to the universe if such a machine was created? Enough powerful enough of such machines could destroy the universe forever.

 

So I beg you, if you do discover perpetual motion, keep it quiet, you could be on the verge of destroying us all.

[buzsaw]

I believe the Atmos Clock is a perpetual motion machine, is it not? I sold a vintage Atmos Clock a year or so ago for $350 on Ebay. I see the new ones run from $2900 to around $57,000.

 

]The Perpetual ATMOS Clock in all its GLORY; If you are interested in buying ... Building Atmos clocks at the Jaeger-LeCoultre Factory, Vallee De Joux in the ...

http://www.compadapt.com/atmos.html - 4k

[ydoaPs]

no, it's not. read how it works.

[buzsaw]

no, it's not. read how it works.

 

I read that. Would you mind explaining to me, the layman, why it isn't?

[BenSon]

I found this on http://www.davidwestclocks.com

It works like this--when the temperature rises, a mixture of gas expands in the expansion chamber, which then compresses a spiral spring. with a fall in temperature the gas condenses and the spring slackens. This tiny back-and-forth motion is sufficient to wind up the clock and keep it running

How is that perpetual motion? When the temperature changes there is input of energy.

 

~Scott

[ydoaPs]

that is what i was going to tell buzsaw.

[gnpatterson]

As already pointed out a machine that extracts energy from a difficult or obscure source is not a perpetual motion machine. The technical definition of the two types of machine being given before are useful but I would like to see the adoption of the pschological defintion.

 

It is a machine, the imagined construction of which, brings a benifit that is sufficient to seduce a person into making efforts beyond the level of their ablity to accurately estimate the likley of their success.

 

I'm not totally happy with this definition but I like that it can be used to include things like time machines, faster than light travel etc.

 

In particular I am interested in the relationship between how we generate such machines and the use of narrative in the thinking process.

 

It seems to me that the construction of such machines depends first on the mental construction of a narrative involving the principal/discovery. Out of our day dreams these machines seem to force their way. You are asking yourself "what if I could" and then you have constructed enough of the mental picture to dazel yourself into forgetting that the thing you started from was a day dream.

 

It has got to be a fundamental feature of brains that have only just evolved to use tools that such machines keep being designed.

[buzsaw]

I found this on http://www.davidwestclocks.com

 

How is that perpetual motion? When the temperature changes there is input of energy.

 

~Scott

 

Thanks BenSon. I see what you mean.

[snpssaini]

pls. check for perpetual motion

snpssaini

[insane_alien]

yeah. that doesn't work in real life. it only really works(as in it'll keep on spinning for ever) is if you make a physics simulator and set the friction coefficient to zero. and if you can do that then you might as well just have a wheel.

[Jacquesl]

This perpetual motion machine does not exist on earth only at zero gravity or in space with no friction and NO LOAD and it will stop after a certain time period, like we say time will tell

[Saryctos]

Not perpetual by any means, but as long as there is radiant heat you could just use an uneven 'U' with a membrane and a filter to get osmosis flowing =P perpetual? hardly, free, maybe?