Any way to induce hallucination without drugs?

[Sigma6]

i wondered if these would count as hallucinations. Just now (2am) i saw my keyboard on my laptop have like a liquid effect for a few seconds, i also had this once before on my wall. Also i dont think these are hallucinations but i wondered if anyone would know why i have wierd thoughts were i can actually visualize the idea perfectly and become dettached from reality for about 2 seconds, like at school i thought it would be cool if the room had a big painting of the sun on it and then i saw it and thought it was there for about 2 seconds. i just wondered if anybody knew anything about this.

 

Try lucid dreaming to hallucination im starting tonight, read about a guy who split into 2 people at once and had sex with himself.

[Zingaro]

I believe I have on several occassions hallucinated for a second when I wake up.

 

Before falling asleep people go into what is called a hypnogogic state. They are still consciously aware but the dreaming part begins. This only lasts about a minute or so. But you can actually observe dream images and analyse them with your awake consciousness. When you wake up as the dream recedes you again go into a hypnogogic state where you are aware of the dream images and begin to have thoughts about them. For most people this happens so fast they are unaware of it but several artists have reported that they lie on a couch and induce the hypnogogic state to creat images or music - Yehudi Mehunin demonstated on tv how he lay on a couch and composed music in this state.

[JesuBungle]

I agree with the above post to meditate. I've only done LSD once and developed HPPD from it, but the positive is that I am able to seperate myself from my ego and body very easily. When you meditate you decide what you want to see, not some drug taking you on a random voyage hell ride.

[[Tycho?]]

Before falling asleep people go into what is called a hypnogogic state. They are still consciously aware but the dreaming part begins. This only lasts about a minute or so. But you can actually observe dream images and analyse them with your awake consciousness. When you wake up as the dream recedes you again go into a hypnogogic state where you are aware of the dream images and begin to have thoughts about them. For most people this happens so fast they are unaware of it but several artists have reported that they lie on a couch and induce the hypnogogic state to creat images or music - Yehudi Mehunin demonstated on tv how he lay on a couch and composed music in this state.

 

I can induce that kind of state. I just lay down and close my eyes. Once the dreaming starts I am not fully aware of it, just as with most dreams the memory of it receeds very quickly. But its very interesting to do regardless. Just laying down and letting your mind wander, thinking about various things. And then at some point your mind starts wandering in a different way, thought associations become much stranger. So while in normal thought I might be thinking of school, and then start thinking of math class. In this semi dream state I might be thinking about school, then start thinking about toothpaste, something apparently random. Visualization starts and becomes strange quickly, with very bizzare things happening. Overall its very interesting.

 

And while in this quasi dreaming state I retain some abilities; I can still estimate the time, and I still can keep my "ears open" and can respond to tiny sounds. Its also quite restful, I find it to be like a nap, and you also dont feel groggy afterwords.

[labgirl153]

As another poster noted, hypnagogic hallucinations are very common among most people (on falling asleep entering the REM state prior to full unconsciousness), but there are also hypnapompic hallucinations. I've "suffered" from these since early childhood, they peaked in my twenties (substantially) and now I seldom have them (fortunately). VERY vivid, realistic visuals right down to the most minute detail. Always occur within the first 2 hrs. of sleep. No sleep paralysis either. Talk about tripping out.

 

To answer your immediate question however...try using melatonin 3 mg time-release, not the sublingual 1 mg. GNC carries this. I've used this several times just for kicks. My dreams were so vivid that they seemed real. Memory retention for detail is astounding. Not exactly an hallucination but lucid nonetheless. Melatonin is basically harmless and increasing the dosage beyond 3-5 mg will not enhance your experience. Give it a go. You should awaken refreshed as well. Don't do it every night lest your pineal gland "forget" how to make melatonin since it is a natural hormone.

[foodchain]

Besides thought in general there is always sleep deprivation, just do that for about 68 hours without artificial aid and you will start seeing things, this is made worse by doing hard labor during this period of time pretty much nonstop.

[Genecks]

back to the OP, you can hallucinate by geting a fever, although I'm not sure how you could induce a fever... get pneumonia, maybe.

 

Yes, this is true. I had a high fever a couple of years ago. I saw a yellow submarine, and I heard the Beatles' music, too. Although at the time, I was not aware that song was from the Beatles. It was very, very trippy.

[1veedo]

Just a couple things that havn't already been mentioned:

 

You can cut your wrists and "bleed."

And you can also get bit by a rattle snake but you have to avoid medical attention for a few days.

Putting your body through so much stress that you start to hallucinate is less sensible than inducing it through a chemical' date=' that has no evidence of harmful effects...apart from doing something stupid whilst under the influence, but your just as likely to do something stupid with no sleep for 3 days.[/quote']It depends on what drug. LSD for instance (which causes hallucinations) will **** you up with only one use.

Not even. Getting around 25-30 hours of sleep per week for 3 months or so will do it just as well. I speak from experience on this. It is not a fun existance and will probably lead to (at least) a mild depression, if not worse

Going without sleep for more than three days is harmful for your brain.

I know this is not a drug discussion' date=' but I'd just like to comment on this. There are no harmful physical affects from taking LSD.[/quote']No, LSD is extremely bad for you, even after just one use. That and meth are probably the two worst drugs you can possibly take and both do harm after only one use. People report psychological problems like insomnia, hallucinations, and full-fledged psychotic episodes 40+ years after trying LSD only once in their life. It really is something you want to avoid. Marijuana is in a completely different league then these drugs, and although longterm marijuana use does carry some side-effects it's relatively safe. But not all drugs are as "soft" as marijuana.

To answer your immediate question however...try using melatonin 3 mg time-release' date=' not the sublingual 1 mg. GNC carries this. I've used this several times just for kicks. My dreams were so vivid that they seemed real. Memory retention for detail is astounding. Not exactly an hallucination but lucid nonetheless. Melatonin is basically harmless and increasing the dosage beyond 3-5 mg will not enhance your experience. Give it a go. You should awaken refreshed as well. Don't do it every night lest your pineal gland "forget" how to make melatonin since it is a natural hormone.[/quote']Yeah, melatonin is awesome. And it definitely increases hypnagogic hallucinations.

 

 

Oh and wow strong bump

[Royston]

LSD is extremely bad for you, even after just one use.

 

I think you mean...'could' be extremely bad for you. Not that I'm advocating it's use, but citations please...did it not occur to you that there are also many that have used it and are perfectly healthy, note, somebody taking LSD, enjoying themself, and going to work the next day is hardly newsworthy.

[the tree]

LSD does have no physical affects, good or bad, but it does have the potential to be mentally devastating. It's not usually very harmful, and absolutely not the worst drug you can take (seriously, where did you get that idea?), but I would not call it worthwhile.

 

What's with the fascination with hallucinations anyway? You get to hallucinate pretty vividly every time you go to bed. There is absolutely no safe way to induce any other kind of hallucination, consider that a hallucination is a symptom of your brain going screwy in of itself and if it comes along with other symptoms such as paranoia or depression then it is far from a fun experience whether it has a long lasting affect or not.

[1veedo]

I think you mean...'could' be extremely bad for you. Not that I'm advocating it's use, but citations please...did it not occur to you that there are also many that have used it and are perfectly healthy, note, somebody taking LSD, enjoying themself, and going to work the next day is hardly newsworthy.

If you take the full dosage then yes it can be physically and mentally bad for you.

 

I actually know someone who used LSD once and now he keeps getting flashbacks, often disrupting things he's doing at the moment. I'm sure there are going to be many different effects depending on it's unique effects on an individual, and it's side-effects aren't going to necessarily stop someone from "going to work" but I don't think many people are going to agree with you that it's "harmless."

 

I think the biggest long-term effect of LSD is flashbacks which seems to have a [official] 20% to 28% occurrence (depending on what study you look at, which btw probably underestimate the actual rates of occurrence because of the illegal nature of LSD use. These figures come from clinical reports of people admitting to LSD use when seeking medical help for full-blown HPPD. And they don't include "minor" flashbacks which don't classify officially as HPPD). So if you want a citation from a quick google scholar search, "LSD flashbacks and ego functioning" in Journal of Abnormal Psychology.

 

Btw I don't see the problem with trusting the US government's data about drugs. Earlier in the thread either you or someone else said not to trust the government about drug use. But it's not like the government is one big "thing" -- there are different devisions. If you look at steroids for example they were baned for political reasons -- politicians got good report from the baseball scandals for being against steroid use. In competitive sports steroids probably should be banned but congress was under the impression that steroid use was also unhealthy. President Bush even backs up his position on this issue by saying frankly that steroids are "deadly." However, on actual government websites (NIDA, "From the case reports, the incidence of life-threatening effects appears to be low") it is clear that in healthy adult males steroid use is pretty much harmless, and this is what the actual scientific studies suggest. The only side-effect found from steroid use is a link with hairloss and increased cholesterol -- though not to life-threatening levels. Taken by women or men under 22 however steroid use can have lifelong consequences. If you don't want to trust what congress says I could see why but there are many devisions of the government with accurate, non-biased information, which oftentimes contradict the official government stance on different issues. Marijuana use would be another example this -- surprisingly official government reports about marijuana seem to support the pro-legalization side.

What's with the fascination with hallucinations anyway? You get to hallucinate pretty vividly every time you go to bed. There is absolutely no safe way to induce any other kind of hallucination, consider that a hallucination is a symptom of your brain going screwy in of itself and if it comes along with other symptoms such as paranoia or depression then it is far from a fun experience whether it has a long lasting affect or not.

Yeah you're really not supposed to hallucinate -- your brain has evolved, if anything, to not hallucinate. I've had hypnagogic hallucinations before and it really isn't all that fun.

[Royston]

If you take the full dosage then yes it can be physically and mentally bad for you.

 

I actually know someone who used LSD once and now he keeps getting flashbacks, often disrupting things he's doing at the moment. I'm sure there are going to be many different effects depending on it's unique effects on an individual, and it's side-effects aren't going to necessarily stop someone from "going to work" but I don't think many people are going to agree with you that it's "harmless."

 

Eaxctly, it's really down to the individual / dose et.c (active at 25 microgrammes) it only takes a little (putting it mildly) for it to take effect, and the effect has a long duration, up to 12 hours...so you can understand why it would cause problems. I actually know a number of people that have 'dabbled' as it were, but none have reported flashbacks, but I certainly don't deny that they occur. I slao didn't say it was 'harmless', but there was no evidence for harmful effects...I should of said physical effects, so sorry about that.

 

So if you want a citation from a quick google scholar search, "LSD flashbacks and ego functioning" in Journal of Abnormal Psychology.

 

Thanks, I'll have a look.

 

Btw I don't see the problem with trusting the US government's data about drugs. Marijuana use would be another example this -- surprisingly official government reports about marijuana seem to support the pro-legalization side.

 

The only problem I have with the drug laws, is that they simply haven’t worked, but that's a different debate (I'll get a link to the politics thread where I discussed this issue)...and no it wasn't me that mentioned the US government’s data on drugs.

Cannabis, maybe re-classified again in the UK, because of recent correlations with its use and schizophrenia, but personally I think that's down to the cannabis that's available now, having such high THC values due to hybridization of plants...though that's just my correlation, and I don't have any evidence to support this.

 

EDIT: http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25718&page=2 here's the link to the thread in politics, not sure if you've read it or not.

[1veedo]

Eaxctly, it's really down to the individual / dose et.c (active at 25 microgrammes) it only takes a little (putting it mildly) for it to take effect, and the effect has a long duration, up to 12 hours...so you can understand why it would cause problems. I actually know a number of people that have 'dabbled' as it were, but none have reported flashbacks, but I certainly don't deny that they occur. I slao didn't say it was 'harmless', but there was no evidence for harmful effects...I should of said physical effects, so sorry about that.

Well in all technicality there are physical effects as well as mental/psychological effects. In psychology of course you learn that everthing psychological is simultaneously physical but if we distinguish here I'm talking about psychological effects. Physical effects can be fever, tremers, increased heart rate etc, but the psychological effects can be bad.

 

It may not kill you, but we're talking roughly 1 in 4 people after taking LSD start experiencing psychotic episodes and flashbacks. Many people used to think that LSD would stay in your brain for over 20 years because of longterm effects that people experience from LSD. We know now of course that this isn't the case but it appears to have an immediate, long-term effect on a user's brain. Some people report that LSD actually changed their life permanently -- though this can be a positive change. If you're the other group of people then great, you probably wont have negative side-effetcs but you're still taking a fairly large risk by trying LSD.

 

Physically it wont make your heart explode or anything but there IS evidence for psychological effects. IMO if you wanted to hallucinate with the help of drugs marijuana would be a much safer alternative.

[ParanoiA]

Anecdotal, but I took a lot of LSD in a year or two phase of my life. I mean - alot. I even started dealing it for a brief time before realizing the severity of the legal punishment for possession and sale.

 

But in that time I met alot of LSD freaks. I'm not talking about the "ever now and then" crowd, or "exploring artists", but people who regularly used LSD on an almost daily basis.

 

While I would love to say that LSD was great - because it was, I never laughed so much in my life and learned so many depressing things about myself at the same time - it really is very dangerous. If you met the regular users that I met, you'd never touch it.

 

That said, I've never had a single flash back in my life. Although, I have often wondered if my mental issue could have been exacerbated by it.

 

If you want to scare your kids away from the stuff, don't use the same scare tactics about sanity and so forth, just lie and make it good: LSD and Meth will make your weinee and/or breasts grow small and never get normal size.

[Wormwood]

It may not kill you, but we're talking roughly 1 in 4 people after taking LSD start experiencing psychotic episodes and flashbacks.

Do you have any sources for this? This seems like a ridiculously false statistic. I have known more than 20 people who used to do LSD regularly and none have any psychological issues that they didn't have before we started. I personally have taken around 30 hits of liquid at one time with no long term effects (other than a kick ass halloween in new orleans). I have also tripped on DMT, mushrooms, morning glory seeds and even robatussin DM (we got bored easliy when I was a kid) with little to no lasting effect. The only lasting effect I can think of is the persistence of what we used to call "crazy business". It's basically the multi-colored T.V. static you see when you close your eyes. Other than that, nothing.

 

I think if people are ending up with problems it's because they have mishandled the drug. When LSD was first introduced, therapists realized that patients on LSD could make a many sessions worth of progress in just one session. So if someone sets up a bad situation it's like getting months of bad therapy.

 

In 1953 German psychiatrist Walter Frederking published one of the first European articles on LSD as part of psychotherapy. In what came to be known as psycholytic (from the Greek words for ‘mind’ and ‘to loosen’) therapy, he used low doses of LSD to shorten therapy, ease mood problems or memory blocks, and get patients to catharsis. Over the next few years, psychiatrists around the world who used LSD in therapy reported similar results. Psycholytic therapy grew in Europe and the United States and, from 1953 to 1967, research papers documented good results

http://www.echeat.com/essay.php?t=25621

 

And finally, it has been my experience that all of those horror stories (i.e. my friend thinks he's a carrot; my friend jumped off of a roof, or whatever) are usually relayed anecdotes (a friend of a friend told me) with no basis in reality. One good indicator these stories are false is when you go to a new area and the local people have the same urban legends. I think every region has their version of the same few stories. Has anyone else heard of the guy that thinks he's a cup of orange juice? I have heard that exact urban legend in at least three different cities scattered across the U.S...everyone claims to know the guy, or knows someone that knows him.

 

As for the OP; morning glory seeds are the way to go. It's a mild trip (5 packs of seeds was close to one hit of blotter [weak acid]).

[1veedo]

Do you have any sources for this?

Yes, I kind of posted it above on this page. "LSD flashbacks and ego functioning" This study reports a figure of 28%. There's another study I remember finding on google scholar showing a rate of 20% but makes excuses for itself, for example they say the data is based off people admitting to LSD use when seeking medical help for full-blown HPPD so the figure is probably higher. Another study done by Dr. Horowitze found that 7/22 (about 1/3) people who used LSD "repeatedly" (defined as 15 'trips' in their lifetime) reported flashbacks.

I think if people are ending up with problems it's because they have mishandled the drug. When LSD was first introduced' date=' therapists realized that patients on LSD could make a many sessions worth of progress in just one session. So if someone sets up a bad situation it's like getting months of bad therapy.[/quote']Many otherwise harmful drugs have medical uses. Meth, which I don't think anyone would ague against me is by far the most dangerous [popular] recreational drug, can/does treat ADD and narcolepsy. THC does wonders for eating -- both curing nausea and enhancing appetite which is used in AIDs and cancer patients. There is a difference between medical and recreational use of drugs. Even cold medicine can be used incorrectly for recreational purposes.

And finally, it has been my experience that all of those horror stories (i.e. my friend thinks he's a carrot; my friend jumped off of a roof, or whatever) are usually relayed anecdotes (a friend of a friend told me) with no basis in reality.

Well this isn't what I'm talking about. I actually know a little bit about these drugs because I did some research of my own a few years ago. I watched a video about meth use in highschool and being my rebellious-student self I went home looking into some of the claims in this video so I could report to my friends "yeah, don't do meth but the video is full of shit." It turns out meth really is everything it's cracked up to be. It has a 99% addiction rate after only one use. The drug user doesn't realize it (he thinks he's not addicted) but there is serious research showing exactly how meth does this and sure enough after a month or so the same user goes back and tries it again. There's an interesting phenomenon which links a lot of drug side-effects together. Basically every drug in this group increases dopamine levels and after enough use people start developing side-effects similar to psychosis. Different drugs all have individual side-effects but a good chunk of side-effects are similar across all of them.

 

I have met a number of 'hardcore' drug users before and it's not like they fall over and die or "think they're a carrot" like you're talking about. In this regard I would agree with you. But there are a lot of psychological problems associated with prolonged drug use. Some drugs are worse then others as well. MDMA for instance seems to mess up a lot of people while marijuana is viewed as being relatively harmless. I used to know a lot of drug users (in highschool) who would tell you point blank, don't do MDMA and a few others who said to avoid LSD.

[Wormwood]

Yes, I kind of posted it above on this page. "LSD flashbacks and ego functioning" This study reports a figure of 28%. There's another study I remember finding on google scholar showing a rate of 20% but makes excuses for itself, for example they say the data is based off people admitting to LSD use when seeking medical help for full-blown HPPD so the figure is probably higher. Another study done by Dr. Horowitze found that 7/22 (about 1/3) people who used LSD "repeatedly" (defined as 15 'trips' in their lifetime) reported flashbacks.

Ok I'll suspend my judgment on this until I have had a chance to look at the source then. Thanks BTW.

 

Many otherwise harmful drugs have medical uses. Meth, which I don't think anyone would ague against me is by far the most dangerous [popular] recreational drug, can/does treat ADD and narcolepsy. THC does wonders for eating -- both curing nausea and enhancing appetite which is used in AIDs and cancer patients. There is a difference between medical and recreational use of drugs. Even cold medicine can be used incorrectly for recreational purposes.

This is all true, but it is arbitrary to the point I was making. In the controled environment, LSD had success stories for more than 10 years in HELPING with psychological problems, if there was something inherant in the use alone, don't you think some of these symptoms would have surfaced earlier? In an uncontroled environment people could potentially be traumatized in some respect or another simply from bad circumstance, and bad reaction to that cirumstance. This doesn't reflect on the drug as much as the people using it, and to what ends IMO.

[pioneer]

If you look what a hallucination is, it amounts to an imaginary episode, that projects into reality, to create the impression it stems from reality. In other words, if I see a pink elephant, it only exists within my imagination. It is not real, yet my reaction will make me think it exists in reality, as though actual sensory data is coming into my senses from the outside. When in fact the sensory input starts within the brain.

 

When we sleep and dream, the external sensors are shut down. But dreams can appear real, at times, when they impinge upon the sensory areas of the brain. The body will react as though actual external input is what is causing this induction. Hallucinations are an important type of data in the sense they shows that it is possible for the inside of the brain, to trigger the same neural induction, that are often assumed to only work with external data.

 

Most people do not have the vivid hallucinations like the topic of this discussion. For most people the hallucination/projection is suble. The small child waiting for Santa Claus might have an imagination projection that will overlay their reality, which may affect them in an emotional way. The chimney now appears to induce feelings like Santa is in the chimney.

 

Orson Wells' radio broadcast of the invasion by Martians, made the imagination very active to where many began to believe. Many began to panic like the Martians were actually there. Nobody saw any, but they knew they were there, due to the emotions that are normally assumed to require reality input, being induced by the imagination. The input on the sensory areas of the brain is part real and part imagination, but is often interpretted like it is all real, coming from the external environment.

 

That is why philosophers work so hard to explain reality. They are aware of how the imagination can become a projector shining through the eyes. The state of one's unconscious mind will dicate the type of movie overlay. What we think we see and react to, is a combination of the two. When someone buys a new electronic toy, the projector is active. As the object looses it original radiance, this usually means the projector is either starting to dim or is beaming its inner light somewhere else for us. We prefer to call that free choice, rather than call it a type of hallucination.

 

Psychology is really the study of the projector. By knowing which movie is playing it allows one to see reality in a somewhat better light. Sometimes psycholgy doesn't try to shut off the projector but tries to put a nicer movie in the projector, so the projector gives us a better hallucination. If one can project good into a bad situation life becomes much better. The old gold miners projected gold in their claim and may have never found the big vein, but spent a lifetime with hope and excitement.

 

There is even another aspect to the projector. When everyone thought the world was flat, this beleif became the movie for the projector. Everyone would look at the world around and see that it was flat, since the projector was working much better than their rational grasp of reality. But then Columbus came along and a second projector overlayed the first. This projector led him like the old gold miner but in this case the projector was actually projecting reality onto the imaginary world of his day. In other words, he did not have proof of the gold but worked on a gut feeling. The unconscious does not just project fanatasy but can project better reality.

[1veedo]

This is all true, but it is arbitrary to the point I was making. In the controled environment, LSD had success stories for more than 10 years in HELPING with psychological problems, if there was something inherant in the use alone, don't you think some of these symptoms would have surfaced earlier? In an uncontroled environment people could potentially be traumatized in some respect or another simply from bad circumstance, and bad reaction to that cirumstance. This doesn't reflect on the drug as much as the people using it, and to what ends IMO.

That is all true with LSD just because of the nature of LSD -- it depends more on the person than the actual drug. Side-effects of LSD have been known sense at least the 60s. The dosage was also much less then what's required for psychedelic effects. In reality though LSD was only tested or played around with and never used medically. Before the complete ban of LSD (in the US) it was classified as "schedule 1" meaning it had no legitimate medical use and the government considered it unsafe (lol thank you history channel -- has anyone seen their special on recreational drugs?).

 

This is all irrelevant though because we're talking about two different things here. In one case you're taking large enough doses to trip and the other you're trying to cure a disease of some sort. It's like the difference between taking meth or desoxyn (medical meth); they're completely different even though it's the same drug. Furthermore many drugs prescribed for medical reasons do have harmful side-effects. And this is especially true for psychological drugs. Eg read this. A drug doesn't have to be "safe" or "side-effect free." The idea is to find a balance between negative effects of a drug and positive effects.

[dichotomy]

I’ve heard claims that medieval monks used to self induce serious infections in order to have divine revelations (hallucinations in other words).

[sweatersdotc]

@EverCurious... I infer from your post that it is against the rules to insult members. However, you did request it.

 

"LSD research on the mind is done in extremely controlled environments, so controlled that they can fluctuate temperatures by a single degree."

 

Right, except for when they were conducting studies in college libraries (Source: http://www.psychedelic-library.org/staf5.htm"), or when the CIA was doing research in broken-down rowhouses (Source: Google search Project MKULTRA). LSD research isn't even being conducted anymore, except on rats, not even in countries outside the USA, and when it was it was done by psychologists, not physicists in a sterile vacuum chamber, so I don't know where you are getting your information.

 

"LSD is lysergic acid diethylamide, it is aquired from lysergic acid, which is found in ergot, a fungus that grows on rye and other grains. Which means that hallucination induced through smoking cactus is probably acheived through some chemical equivalent to LSD."

 

Wrong. The active chemical in cactus (peyote) is mescaline (3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine). It is not an alkaloid of lysergic acid. It is a phenethylamine, where LSD is a tryptamine. It is depressing that on a website called SCIENCEforums.net, I am reading posts that are pure conjecture, without an attempt at finding supporting information, and use words like "probably" in a blatant admission of the fact that the poster really doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

LSA, a compound which is also derived from ergot, produces markedly different effects from LSD (it is a psychedelic sedative, where LSD is usually characterized by an energized euphoric feeling). Explaining away all hallucinogenic substances as "equivalent" is as foolish, and indeed as dangerous, as assuming that Tylenol and sleeping pills are "equivalent."

 

And as a side note, to the person who wondered what the point of hallucinations was, where do you think the Native Americans came up with their religion? (Native Americans were the first to use morning glory seeds, which contain LSA, for hallucinogenic purposes, and when MacDougall published his study in 1960, he referred to the Native Americans' use of morning glory seeds as a "sacrament") Why do you think that sweat tents, ritual drums, and "mystic" herbs are such an integral part of shamanic religions? What about the prevalence of fruit as symbols of enlightenment in religion? The forbidden apple on the tree in the Garden of Eden and Buddha's awakening beneath the fig tree are two good examples. Of course, apples and figs are not hallucinogenic, but I'm not convinced that there is no significance to the archetype of "eat this fruit and you will gain enlightenment."

 

I'm not condoning or recommending the use of drugs. I'll be the first to say they are not for everyone, maybe not even for most people. But I'll also be the first to laugh at someone who is uneducated enough to believe the propaganda they've been fed, or worse, someone who believes himself to be smart because he saw through the first wave of propaganda, only to eat up a second, equally false set of myths and lies. You know who you are... all you people who make statements like "LSD doesn't really make you go crazy, but it does stay in your spine forever..." or "LSD doesn't really stay in your spine, but 25% of the people who use it have flashbacks."

 

Speaking of the flashbacks, think about the studies conducted... the sample group was LSD users who volunteered for the study because they had HPPD (hallucinogen persisting perception disorder) and wanted help. Does nobody besides me see that this is an obviously skewed study? Of course a lot of people who seek help for LSD flashbacks will report that they have LSD flashbacks. What about all the other people who have taken LSD... do you think that there is a database with all their names, how often they took it, how much they took, and whether they experienced flashbacks? Don't be so quick to believe numbers... if you look, you can find scientific studies to both prove and disprove just about anything you want. For example, I read an article just two days ago that "proved" that vitamins are actually bad for your health. Weird, I thought that some other scientific study "proved" the opposite. Use your brain, and the part of it that thinks on its own, not just the part that memorizes what other people tell it.

[DrDNA]

@EverCurious... I infer from your post that it is against the rules to insult members. However, you did request it.

 

"LSD research on the mind is done in extremely controlled environments, so controlled that they can fluctuate temperatures by a single degree."

 

Right, except for when they were conducting studies in college libraries (Source: http://www.psychedelic-library.org/staf5.htm"), or when the CIA was doing research in broken-down rowhouses (Source: Google search Project MKULTRA). LSD research isn't even being conducted anymore, except on rats, not even in countries outside the USA, and when it was it was done by psychologists, not physicists in a sterile vacuum chamber, so I don't know where you are getting your information.

 

"LSD is lysergic acid diethylamide, it is aquired from lysergic acid, which is found in ergot, a fungus that grows on rye and other grains. Which means that hallucination induced through smoking cactus is probably acheived through some chemical equivalent to LSD."

 

Wrong. The active chemical in cactus (peyote) is mescaline (3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine). It is not an alkaloid of lysergic acid. It is a phenethylamine, where LSD is a tryptamine. It is depressing that on a website called SCIENCEforums.net, I am reading posts that are pure conjecture, without an attempt at finding supporting information, and use words like "probably" in a blatant admission of the fact that the poster really doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

LSA, a compound which is also derived from ergot, produces markedly different effects from LSD (it is a psychedelic sedative, where LSD is usually characterized by an energized euphoric feeling). Explaining away all hallucinogenic substances as "equivalent" is as foolish, and indeed as dangerous, as assuming that Tylenol and sleeping pills are "equivalent."

 

And as a side note, to the person who wondered what the point of hallucinations was, where do you think the Native Americans came up with their religion? (Native Americans were the first to use morning glory seeds, which contain LSA, for hallucinogenic purposes, and when MacDougall published his study in 1960, he referred to the Native Americans' use of morning glory seeds as a "sacrament") Why do you think that sweat tents, ritual drums, and "mystic" herbs are such an integral part of shamanic religions? What about the prevalence of fruit as symbols of enlightenment in religion? The forbidden apple on the tree in the Garden of Eden and Buddha's awakening beneath the fig tree are two good examples. Of course, apples and figs are not hallucinogenic, but I'm not convinced that there is no significance to the archetype of "eat this fruit and you will gain enlightenment."

 

I'm not condoning or recommending the use of drugs. I'll be the first to say they are not for everyone, maybe not even for most people. But I'll also be the first to laugh at someone who is uneducated enough to believe the propaganda they've been fed, or worse, someone who believes himself to be smart because he saw through the first wave of propaganda, only to eat up a second, equally false set of myths and lies. You know who you are... all you people who make statements like "LSD doesn't really make you go crazy, but it does stay in your spine forever..." or "LSD doesn't really stay in your spine, but 25% of the people who use it have flashbacks."

 

Speaking of the flashbacks, think about the studies conducted... the sample group was LSD users who volunteered for the study because they had HPPD (hallucinogen persisting perception disorder) and wanted help. Does nobody besides me see that this is an obviously skewed study? Of course a lot of people who seek help for LSD flashbacks will report that they have LSD flashbacks. What about all the other people who have taken LSD... do you think that there is a database with all their names, how often they took it, how much they took, and whether they experienced flashbacks? Don't be so quick to believe numbers... if you look, you can find scientific studies to both prove and disprove just about anything you want. For example, I read an article just two days ago that "proved" that vitamins are actually bad for your health. Weird, I thought that some other scientific study "proved" the opposite. Use your brain, and the part of it that thinks on its own, not just the part that memorizes what other people tell it.

 

Great post Sweatersdotc!

It made me want to dust off PIHKAL.

 

Welcome to Scienceforums.

[ParanoiA]

Great post sweatersdoct. It made me want to score some acid...just kidding.

[iNow]

Sounds like a lot of SFN readers are thinking about old uncle sid and taking a ride on the A-train.

[DrDNA]

"Like every great religion of the past we seek to find the divinity within and to express this revelation in a life of glorification and the worship of God. These ancient goals we define in the metaphor of the present — turn on, tune in, drop out."

 

Uncle Tim