Irony in Islam

[Pangloss]

Well we could nit-pick the details there ('disliking Islam'?), but I think Bettina has a valid point.

 

But it's kinda irrelevent in my view. I want my country to stop executing people because it's the correct thing to do (or rather stop doing, if you'll excuse my rushed phrasing). Execution is retribituion, which is not the purpose of justice, and it's also too final given the inherent uncertainty of the justice system.

 

And I don't really care much what other countries choose to do in this area. (shrug)

[JustStuit]

Do you know how much money it costs to keep a high risk criminal in maximum security jail? How could we afford to hold all the people who have a life sentance in jail. It would take guards, food, survelince, building, electricity, water, safety precautions, etc. I bet it costs a lot, although I'm not sure how much. I am against using the death penalty but it would sure cost a lot of money. If only it were cheaper or something. Also the threat of escaping could be another con. Too bad people can't just be nice.

[reverse]

That film “a clockwork orange” was about treating criminals with drug induced nausea aversion therapy.

 

That was an interesting concept.

 

But well off the subject here…

 

The biggest Irony about Islam as far as I can see,

is that it was the Islamic empire that started the whole idea of capitalism,

with their nomadic life style and access to different kingdoms and markets.

 

Now that is really really funny when you think about it.

[Bettina]

Can you back any of these up? Has anyone in Iran ever been executed for 'disliking Islam' for example?

 

I think you know what I meant, but here are the rules. Article 513. I will find some names for you too since you don't believe they couldn't possibly do something like that.

 

http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352827&TOCID=2083225444

 

 

Bettina

[Bettina]

I want my country to stop executing people because it's the correct thing to do (or rather stop doing' date=' if you'll excuse my rushed phrasing). Execution is retribituion, which is not the purpose of justice, and it's also too final given the inherent uncertainty of the justice system.

 

And I don't really care much what other countries choose to do in this area. (shrug)[/quote']

 

Not me... For example, I want a child murderer who has admitted he raped and killed a little girl http://blog.lawinfo.com/2005/03/21/sex-offender-charged-with-rape-death-of-9-year-old-lundsford/ to die. Period. No sympathy, no last minute phone call, no forgiveness, nothing...... I just want him dead. I want the parents to pull the switch. I support the death penalty for vermin like him and nothing will change my mind.

 

When vermin like him do what he did, he forfeits his right to live. And when people kill in the name of religion, they forfeit it also.

 

The Islamic religion is going to kill millions of innocent people if we don't stop the spread somehow. I know its coming.

 

Bettina

[reverse]

From a totally cold hearted point of view, there are a few advantages to the death penalty above the cost savings in prison holdings.

 

For example, if you consider that the criminal behavior has a genetic root...then the death penalty removes the gene set from the general population.

 

In fact it might be a good idea to kill all the children of a criminal, to be on the absolute safe side.

 

Secondly, if the criminal behavior has a family environmental root...then by killing all the siblings, the social structure is also removed from propagation..

 

But it might be a good idea to kill the parents of a criminal as well.

They must have had a hand in setting the social scene for the behavior.

 

Trouble is...I don’t think I'm cold hearted enough to want any part of this practical yet horrific solution.

[Tiger's Eye]

From a totally cold hearted point of view' date=' there are a few advantages to the death penalty above the cost savings in prison holdings.

 

For example, if you consider that the criminal behavior has a genetic root...then the death penalty removes the gene set from the general population.

 

In fact it might be a good idea to kill all the children of a criminal, to be on the absolute safe side.

 

Secondly, if the criminal behavior has a family environmental root...then by killing all the siblings, the social structure is also removed from propagation..

 

But it might be a good idea to kill the parents of a criminal as well.

They must have had a hand in setting the social scene for the behavior.

 

Trouble is...I don’t think I'm cold hearted enough to want any part of this practical yet horrific solution.[/quote']

 

It's a trivial question, but would this be in any way legal? Very cold-hearted as you say. I'd seriously dislike to have THAT as my field of work It's an awful lot of killing...

[zyncod]

I'd seriously dislike to have THAT as my field of work It's an awful lot of killing...

 

See, I always thought that people that supported the death penalty should be required to throw the switch (or, in this day of pentothal, at least watch the injection), chosen by lottery.

 

Actually, (tongue in cheek, here), the death penalty abridges the First Amendment. The only people that the death penalty actually harms are the atheists. Quote from a warden: "I would not like to execute an inmate without faith because I know I would be sending his soul straight to hell." http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engACT500011998. You only abridge the life of people without faith by the death penalty, and that violates the establishment clause.

[zyncod]

Postscript-

 

I never could see how any Christians could support the death penalty, since, not only are you depriving somebody of extant life, you're depriving them of life in the hereafter. I mean, killing somebody is pretty much proscribed in the Ten Commandments. If you're going to ignore that, you'll also have to ignore the potential for the executee to find salvation through penance in his remaining time on Earth.

 

If a murderer doesn't repent before his execution, it doesn't mean he never would have. Therefore, the death penalty, in Christian eschatology, is simply an eternal torture sentence.

[JustStuit]

Postscript-

 

I never could see how any Christians could support the death penalty' date=' since, not only are you depriving somebody of extant life, you're depriving them of life in the hereafter. I mean, killing somebody is pretty much proscribed in the Ten Commandments. If you're going to ignore that, you'll also have to ignore the potential for the executee to find salvation through penance in his remaining time on Earth.

 

If a murderer doesn't repent before his execution, it doesn't mean he never would have. Therefore, the death penalty, in Christian eschatology, is simply an eternal torture sentence.[/quote']

Have you ever read Exodus? There is a quote we were debating earlier about "an eye for an eye". Also, someone who has murderer or raped already has nearly no hope in the afterlife so why let them adulterate the earth. Since they will be sent to hell based on their sins and amount/sincerity of repentance, this would not be an issue. I highly doubt many death penalty person would be repenting.

[Tetrahedrite]

See, I always thought that people that supported the death penalty should be required to throw the switch (or, in this day of pentothal, at least watch the injection), chosen by lottery.

I have exactly the same view, and maybe more extreme. I see those who support the death penalty as condoners of murder, and they are just as bad as those who committed the crime.

[Bettina]

First, I agree completely that those who support the death penalty should get to throw the switch. To me, its only fair that the parents of the 9 year old girl that got raped, buried alive, then died in her grave still holding on to her teddy bear, can feel a sense of closure when they get to send the pervert straight to hell. I hope they tape his eyes open so he can watch them do it. And maybe he can carry with him the names of all of you who wish to save him.

 

Condoners of murder? If it was your daughter, would you go into the streets in the blinding rain holding a sign to spare your daughters killer? You people make me sick to my stomach literally.

 

Bettina

[Dak]

life imprisonment is a more eloquent solution IMO -- it allows for the removal of the threat from society, without the ethical problems of killing them, and still acts as a deterrent to others.

 

And betinna: for a person who has, within this thread, condemned 'these nations' for their brutality and uncivilised savagry, do you not think that your barbaric blood-lust is a tad hypocritical?

[zyncod]

Have you ever read Exodus? There is a quote we were debating earlier about "an eye for an eye". Also, someone who has murderer or raped already has nearly no hope in the afterlife so why let them adulterate the earth. Since they will be sent to hell based on their sins and amount/sincerity of repentance, this would not be an issue. I highly doubt many death penalty person would be repenting.

 

Yes, but that's not really your decision to make, is it? Maybe the death penalty would be acceptable if it was assured that the murderer was Christian, but you don't know that. By executing this person, you're simply contributing to the possibility that more people wind up in Hell. Which is pretty contradictory to how most Christians profess to behave.

 

I have exactly the same view, and maybe more extreme. I see those who support the death penalty as condoners of murder, and they are just as bad as those who committed the crime.

 

Mmm, not really. I know where the impulse comes from, I just think that they're misguided. I personally would rather be dead than spend the rest of my life in prison - not that that factors into my reasoning. I just think that nobody should be the arbiter of anybody else's life except in cases of exigency.

 

And maybe he can carry with him the names of all of you who wish to save him.

 

Ok, that was harsh. Do you really think that God is going to fault anybody for trying to keep people alive, as long as it's not harmful to anybody else?

 

BTW, we're getting a bit off topic here, so people might want to split this off or start posting in one of the old capital punishment threads.

[Bettina]

And betinna: for a person who has, within this thread, condemned 'these nations' for their brutality and uncivilised savagry, do you not think that your barbaric blood-lust is a tad hypocritical?

 

Not one bit. Because it doesn't relate. Killing a little girl for lust is much different than beheading people for religious reasons, or spitting on allah, or drawing a cartoon. Show me in my posts where there is a similarity.

 

Bettina

 

Edit... I'll say this again. If we don't stop the spread of the Islamic religion, its going to kill us, and I do mean kill us.

[zyncod]

If we don't stop the spread of the Islamic religion, its going to kill us, and I do mean kill us.

 

What a beautiful sentiment. Is it the Muslims in Indonesia you're afraid of? Sub-saharan Africa? No? Maybe the problem is not Islam but a systematic tactic of subjugation of Arabs on the part of Western civilization followed by the feeding of billions of dollars of oil money into their economies. You want to stop Islamic extremism? Don't outlaw Islam, simply stop driving your car, stop eating meat, and start recycling (along with the concomitant political action).

[Pangloss]

You want to stop Islamic extremism? Don't outlaw Islam, simply stop driving your car, stop eating meat, and start recycling (along with the concomitant political action).

 

Er, setting aside cause and effect for a moment, how about we do what we want to do and they do what they want to do? Is that so much to ask?

[JustStuit]

Yes' date=' but that's not really [i']your[/i] decision to make, is it? Maybe the death penalty would be acceptable if it was assured that the murderer was Christian, but you don't know that. By executing this person, you're simply contributing to the possibility that more people wind up in Hell. Which is pretty contradictory to how most Christians profess to behave.

Exodus 21:23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, etc.

21:12 Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death.

etc etc

It is saying that people who commit horrible crimes should and must be removed. They will wind up in hell anyway.

[john5746]

Edit... I'll say this again. If we don't stop the spread of the Islamic religion, its going to kill us, and I do mean kill us.

 

You need to start drinking decaf...

 

To generalize, we need to keep ALL religion out of government and science as much as possible. Just think Robertson actually ran for President!

[Saryctos]

It is saying that people who commit horrible crimes should and must be removed. They will wind up in hell anyway.

 

But a large misconception for most people is, that is a good thing. In the end we should wish that all will repent and be saved, rather than give into a sense of vengance and damn those who cause us worldly harm.

[JustStuit]

But a large misconception for most people is, that is a good thing. In the end we should wish that all will repent and be saved, rather than give into a sense of vengance and damn those who cause us worldly harm.

I am not saying that that is a good thing. It is however a bad idea to continue to allow them to cause this harm on earth. Many people will not have a chance to live or become Christian or learn of it. We wish it for everyone, but some may hinder others and this is an even worse thing.

[Tetrahedrite]

Edit... I'll say this again. If we don't stop the spread of the Islamic religion, its going to kill us, and I do mean kill us.

I really don't think this kind of mentality is at all helpful, and IMO it sounds a bit pathological and extremely alarmist. When I read this sentence the first thing that came to mind was the rantings of the facists pre-WW2 about how the Jews needed to be stopped.

 

edit: Once again, IMO this is the type of opinion that leads to hatred and intollerance, the type of view that is more likely to inflame the Muslim population and create the violence that you are so fearful of.

[zyncod]

Er, setting aside cause and effect for a moment, how about we do what we want to do and they do what they want to do? Is that so much to ask?

 

Er, because doing what we want to do involves buying things from them. If you want cocaine, you'll have to deal with cocaine dealers, and everything that goes along with that. Besides, reducing oil dependency is not a bad idea anyway, so....

 

Exodus 21:23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, etc.

21:12 Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death.

etc etc

It is saying that people who commit horrible crimes should and must be removed. They will wind up in hell anyway.

 

Will they? I thought one of the foundations of Christianity deals with penance absolving all sins (edit: sorry, ex-Catholic speaking here. Either penance or accepting Jesus). I mean, "we" all bear the sin of turning away from God in the Garden. Murder kind of pales besides that, as bad as murder is. Christian doctrine, as I'm sure you know, deviates substantially from what is set forth in the Old Testament. Hence the "turn the other cheek" saying.

 

And the fact is, even Exodus itself contradicted Genesis (and Numbers, where Moses advocates outright murder and rape), since Cain was not put to death. I don't know how you people keep up with all of this.

[reverse]

since this thing seems to be off "irony" and on to "revenge"....

 

Lets talk about revenge.

 

I have to admit...there's something quite appealing about the concept of tearing a killer into one inch strips with your bare hands.

 

What is it in us that makes that sort of Rage and Revenge so appealing?

 

What would we really do...

face to face with such a monster...would we show compassion...would we get some strange pleasure from the violence...

difficult to tell in theory.

[Pangloss]