A Doorway to a Digital World

[bascule]

Okay, here’s a thought experiment…

 

Imagine a machine that’s both universal constructor and destructor. An enormous portal that deconstructs anything that touches it, but in the process scans and builds a digital copy of. It simulates what it deconstructs/scans in realtime and the simulation can interact with the copy in the real world as if the two were joined pieces of the same physical object. For example, if you were to stick your hand into it, blood would flow from your arteries into the computer simulation, flow through the capelaries in your virtual hand, then the blood would be reconstructed and flow back into your real veins.

 

Now, imagine that you stuck your head into this machine…

 

Would you die? In a physical form you would cease to exist, your matter devoured and disassembled by the universal constructor/destructor machine. But at the same time a complete computer simulation of your brain lives on inside the computer. And as soon as you pull your head “out” of the simulation and it’s reconstructed, you’re the same as you ever were. What if you stick half of your head, with the machine only gobbling up half your brain. Would you only half die? Imagine sticking half of your body into the machine that your left side existed in the digital world and your right side in the real one.

 

I find many people fear the concept of “downloading” your consciousness into a computer. They feel that the downloaded version would merely be a copy and that it is impossible to “transfer” your consciousness in such a way that you, as the emergent effect of the biochemical operation of your brain, could never be liberated from your body. But if you could transfer your consciousness into a computer in a continuous fashion such as the one I’m describing, to the point where you exist in both physical and digital form and gradually eliminate the physical form and allow the digital form to take on more of the processing of you, I believe you, experientally, would be transferred right along with it.

 

Would I be afraid to walk through such a portal? Certainly. Would I do it? If I felt it were safe enough, then yes.

 

This is a syndicated meme

[padren]

I hate to say it, but I still don't think you would transfer. I tried to play with similar ideas a while back, but I came to the same conclusion. If your left half entered the system, your right half would be kept alive via a "virtual prostetic" left half of a brain.

 

As you continued on into the portal, you would be more and more replaced by the prostetic until the original ceased to exist.

 

In any transfer process, the main question I would ask is, "Is it a copy process in which a destructive element is added out of convienance, so that it resembles a transfer?"

 

If the exact same portal didn't destroy the physical components, but still did the virtual copy part of the work, where would your conciousness be? Its safe to assume I think, that unless all continuity is a pure illusion, then your original consciousness would still be in your physical body in that case.

 

Therefore, how would adding a destructive element, actually change that factor?

 

The only thing I can see it doing, is ensuring the copy is convienced he is in fact, the original having transferred, instead of being newly born with identical knowledge.

 

 

Do you think my qualifying test question, about the destructive process is a fair one? I am interested in new ways to think about this topic, but still can't get over how convienant just throwing in an extra "delete the original" step is in attempting a transfer of consciousness, even if it is clever and gradual.

[starbug1]

Imagine sticking half of your body into the machine that your left side existed in the digital world and your right side in the real one.

 

Well, there's one thing for certain...you wouldn't be able to understand what anyone was saying!...because the auditory cortex is on the left side... whatever. In short, an interesting research field for more than just scientists or psychologists.

 

Anyway, Bascule, great thought. All I can say now is that I know it'd make a great science fiction novel...I don't know, there may be one already that fashions a plot similar to your idea. In fact, I'm almost sure I've seen/heard/read of something like this before.

 

Let me propose: If you stuck your head through 'the barrier' and you are now technically dead, wouldn't your body just slump down lifeless? Unless you had someone there to pull you back through, it's like walking (literally) to your death.

 

Am I getting you correctly? or would the computer simulation of your brain control bodily functions, thereby retaining motor skills and the ability to remain conscious or semi-conscious while remaining--technically--dead?

 

I find many people fear the concept of “downloading” your consciousness into a computer.

 

I think we do this already...Its called blogging. no let up there.

[bascule]

Both of you seemed to have missed something critical from my original statement.

 

Boundary interactions take place between the digital copy and its real life counterpart.

 

In the example regarding your hand, blood flowing into the "portal" via your arteries would be transformed into virtual blood. Similarly, blood which enters the simulation's counterpart of the boundary would be reconstructed in the real world as real blood and would be injected by the "portal" back into your real veins.

 

Nerve impluses traveling through your hand would reach your virtual fingertips. If someone in the virtual world were to hand you a ball, you could manipulate it with your virtual hand and sensory information would be relayed back as virtual nerve impulses until they hit the boundary, where they would be retranslated by the quantum constructor/destructor layer and made into real nerve impulses.

 

If the exact same portal didn't destroy the physical components, but still did the virtual copy part of the work, where would your conciousness be?

 

The point you're missing here is that movement into the digital world occurs in a continuum. It would be impossible for this process to occur without a destructive component because of the boundary interactions between the real and virtual components that are present in such a setup.

 

I'd like to ask you what you think your consciousness is "tied" to in terms of a real-world manifestation. Surely it isn't tied to the specific atoms which make up your brain, because these are constantly being replaced.

 

Well, there's one thing for certain...you wouldn't be able to understand what anyone was saying!...because the auditory cortex is on the left side...

 

The virtual auditory cortex on your left side would interact with the right half of your brain as if real. If the simulation is accurate enough, and the constructor/destructor device able to abstract away the boundary conditions, your abilities should not be affected.

 

Let me propose: If you stuck your head through 'the barrier' and you are now technically dead, wouldn't your body just slump down lifeless? Unless you had someone there to pull you back through, it's like walking (literally) to your death.

 

Any time your body pulls away from the barrier, it would be reconstructed. The electromagnetic force interactions between the real and virtual components of your body would have to be simulated as well. That's why I said it was a quantum constructor/destructor.

[padren]

Both of you seemed to have missed something critical from my original statement.

 

Boundary interactions take place between the digital copy and its real life counterpart.

 

In the example regarding your hand' date=' blood flowing into the "portal" via your arteries would be transformed into virtual blood. Similarly, blood which enters the simulation's counterpart of the boundary would be reconstructed in the real world as real blood and would be injected by the "portal" back into your real veins.

 

Nerve impluses traveling through your hand would reach your virtual fingertips. If someone in the virtual world were to hand you a ball, you could manipulate it with your virtual hand and sensory information would be relayed back as virtual nerve impulses until they hit the boundary, where they would be retranslated by the quantum constructor/destructor layer and made into real nerve impulses.

[/quote']

 

I did understand this - that your hand would have your blood flow up to the point of virtuality, get decontructed, have its continuation virtually calculated, and that it would come back through via reconstruction where the veins flowed back into the physical body.

 

My point is though, if instead of destroying the matter and only simulating it, you allowed the physicality to continue to exist, with a virtual counterpart (and if it was good enough at calculating, it should be near identical with simple things like blood flow and nerves).

 

Then you would be copied as you moved into the portal gradually, just as you specified. The only difference would be some calculations would have different results than the real circulatory system and even more with the virtual mind, and as those results were used for fresh input, you would have an enlarging gap between physical and virtual versions of you, creating some discord in the copy process.

But lets say the virtual copy, while it could simulate...at first measured the entire physical body quanta that was past the gate, and mirrored it exactly. Then it would be kept in perfect synch with the body until its entirety passed through the gate, before switching to simulation mode.

 

In short, if you moved through a gate that was non-destructive in that fashion but equally progressive in its process, would the physical version still contain your consciousness?

 

Since it would, how does adding a simple destructive factor, change the system?

The only thing I can be sure of, is the mind would not realize it was loosing its functionality, because as it was being destroyed, virtual prostetics would be picking up the slack, right down to the point of personality and consciousness. Even though there is consciousness in the emerging copy, how could it be the same consciousness? Its emerging in a databank somewhere, while your physical body is being copied and/or destroyed.

 

I will say, its the best idea I have heard so far. I like the idea that you would have complete continuity, but it still sounds like a clever way to simulate transfer than achieve it.

 

I'd like to ask you what you think your consciousness is "tied" to in terms of a real-world manifestation. Surely it isn't tied to the specific atoms which make up your brain' date=' because these are constantly being replaced.

[/quote']

 

I have to agree its not the atoms, and I have no idea what it is, or how it works. It may be a complete and total illusion in the first place, and there is no difference at all between an original and a copy of a person, even if both co-exist (creepy thought actually).

 

Still, if it may be something more real, I hesitant to do anything that could really screw it up, since we would never be able to tell the difference if we did. If there is something - then it must have survived the atom-replacement test...because if it hasn't then it really is just an illusion. I am certain that if I back up my brain to disk, jump off a cliff, and get reborn in a clone, that the clone would be a new person with my personality, and my personal last experience would be death-by-cliff followed by nothing or whatever.

So, since I have no evidence to evaluate a "ghost" nor can I prevent atomic replacement, I feel like the safest thing to do is stick to undergoing physical phenomina that I can't avoid anyway, at least till some fundamental leaps in the understanding of consciousness are made.

[starbug1]

The point you're missing here is that movement into the digital world occurs in a continuum. It would be impossible for this process to occur without a destructive component because of the boundary interactions between the real and virtual components that are present in such a setup.

 

I'd like to ask you what you think your consciousness is "tied" to in terms of a real-world manifestation. Surely it isn't tied to the specific atoms which make up your brain' date=' because these are constantly being replaced.[/quote']

 

I think that there would have to be a destructive process, yes. Our consciousness is tied up in our intrinsic reality. What we don't know is if the digital world has the same components and regard to our reality, what we know to be the real world. You could even wager that our consciousness is tied to a spiritual body or aural manifestation,...but knowing you, I don't think you will be too keen about that one.

 

In short, I'd have to assume, because the said human body parts are being projected back as not foreign to the body, that any other thing or object or atmosphere crossing over is also projected to an exact digital copy with the same effects on our senses. I believe, then, that our consciousness would be stable; that is, if the digital world really does more than keep atoms together, and it's a high probability that it doesn't.

 

There's still the problem of 'half-in, half-out' consciousness. I think our minds have a natural way of coping, an organizing compensation for the two different 'worlds' it's in at the same time. Scientifically, I have no idea. But from all of the other models I've observed working, they use this idea. Although it is definately probable the creator of this model was lazy when it came to figuring out the details.

 

The virtual auditory cortex on your left side would interact with the right half of your brain as if real. If the simulation is accurate enough, and the constructor/destructor device able to abstract away the boundary conditions, your abilities should not be affected.

 

This is what I first came up with. If the boundry's were so perfect as to create a perfectly working replica of a hand or a head, then there shouldn't, by reason, be much of a noticeable boundary there. In my mind it would be just like walking into a room, although this room is the digital world and you didn't even know it. Kind of like a matrix or dream-world. Our brains might take awhile to pick up on it (if ever.) So even with the destructive force being there, there is little to no impact on our "reality" and senses.

 

Any time your body pulls away from the barrier, it would be reconstructed. The electromagnetic force interactions between the real and virtual components of your body would have to be simulated as well. That's why I said it was a quantum constructor/destructor.

 

Now all we need are the instructions.

[bascule]

Okay, I would like to propose a test based upon the method I've outlined here to differentiate between whether or not you are still "you" if copied by this method.

 

Program the algorithm which deconstructs/translates across the portal barrier to filter certain types of molecules: some type of sleeping agent.

 

Have someone enter the "portal" to where their body lies right down the middle, half virtual and half real. Administer the sleeping agent to the carotid artery on the "real" side.

 

Allow the "real" side of the person to fall asleep and wake up again. Then without moving them, have the person write/type a report of their experience.

 

If they experienced sleep, then awoke after the drug wore off, then consciousness cannot be transferred.

 

However if they experienced a persistent state of wakefulness thanks to the virtual part of their consciousness, could it really be said that their consciousness had not been transferred?

 

If epilepsy subjects can have half their brain removed without their consciousness being destroyed, then I don't see how this should really be different.

[padren]

What is the sim half doing while this is happening? Wouldn't it sleep too, since it is a sim of the physical half?

 

Also, if your goal is different experiences for the left and right half, and see which "win" in the end, then tests on this in epileptic patients who have had the surgery tell us that, the person will experience both - it just depends on what side of the brain you ask.

 

This is why these subjects are taught coping mechanisms like "talking across information" whereby they speak something they know out loud, so both sides of the brain can know about it and stay in relative synch.

 

Can you explain the experiment in a bit more detail? I think I am missing part of it.

[bascule]

What is the sim half doing while this is happening? Wouldn't it sleep too, since it is a sim of the physical half?

 

The idea was that a filtering algorithm would prevent digital copies of the sleep drug from being made, so that the digital copy would remain awake while its analog counterpart sleeps.

 

Also, if your goal is different experiences for the left and right half, and see which "win" in the end, then tests on this in epileptic patients who have had the surgery tell us that, the person will experience both - it just depends on what side of the brain you ask.

 

This isn't a "split brain" patient though. I suppose what would be needed is for the digital arm to write or type what was experienced by the analog half of the brain. If a continuous wakeful state is reported by the digital arm (and therefore the analog brain) then couldn't we say that consciousness was successfully transferred?

[padren]

The idea was that a filtering algorithm would prevent digital copies of the sleep drug from being made' date=' so that the digital copy would remain awake while its analog counterpart sleeps.

 

 

This isn't a "split brain" patient though. I suppose what would be needed is for the digital arm to write or type what was experienced by the analog half of the brain. If a continuous wakeful state is reported by the digital arm (and therefore the analog brain) then couldn't we say that consciousness was successfully transferred?[/quote']

 

Ok, I understand this better, but what it sounds like to me, is that the experience would not be different than temporarially experiencing split brain.

 

Just, instead of being surgically split, one half is asleep. Once it wakes up, the connection between the two halves would be functioning, and any half could search for memories stored anywhere in either half.

 

What if the analog side didn't go to sleep, but experienced something completely different in that time? What if that half reported dreaming as well as the digital wakeful experiences?

 

 

The problem I see with this experiment is as soon as the patient wakes up, all you prove is that the analog brain can access memories that were aquired and stored on the digital side. The element of being half asleep is a convienent means to maintain a single thread of experience between the seperate halves, but that half could just as easily be awake and split by changing the experiment a little, and in that case, what is the nature of the consciousness on the physical side? Wouldn't that consciousness simply feel like they lost half of themself, as would the digital half?

 

If you had to put money on which side the continuity of your consciousness would be on during the experiment of being split (since afterwords, you could not tell the difference) what do you think you would experience?

 

Suddenly loosing access to your physical half, or suddenly loosing access to your virtual half?