Abortion Survey...

[ParanoiA]

DrDNA - as I was going through that post I noticed that a continuous general theme was present in each point of yours. Therefore this reply is somewhat succinct.

 

Your logic seems to hinge on the fact there are consequences for your actions and one should live up to them. Your fallacy is, you are cherry picking consequence. We are content killing the unborn human child and intend to face the consequences of the act of killing it. We may also be content letting it grow and then living with the consequence of a human being - yippee!

 

You act like we're NOT accepting the consequences of intercourse, yet we are. Unless you are going to get hypocritical here and suggest that using condoms and birth control IS accepting consequences of intercourse...surely not.

 

And when did government funding enter the picture? I would never support government funding of killing unborn kids. I would, however, fully support personal funding of killing unborn kids - and farming them wholesale to rob them of their stem cells.

 

 

 

 

 

You're seeing pregnancy as the consequence and abortion as getting out of it. But you have no right to term that as a consequence.

 

From where I sit, it looks like you would prefer for everyone that disagrees with you to crawl under a rock. Who made you king?

 

From where we sit, you appear to be on crack. You are throwing rhetoric about like an angry child slinging shit all over the room. Your arguments start by misrepresentation, which leads to the strawmen. I've never seen you do that before. Baffling really.

[DrDNA]

DrDNA - as I was going through that post I noticed that a continuous general theme was present in each point of yours. Therefore this reply is somewhat succinct.

 

Your logic seems to hinge on the fact there are consequences for your actions and one should live up to them. Your fallacy is, you are cherry picking consequence. We are content killing the unborn human child and intend to face the consequences of the act of killing it.

What might those consequences be?

 

 

You act like we're NOT accepting the consequences of intercourse, yet we are. Unless you are going to get hypocritical here and suggest that using condoms and birth control IS accepting consequences of intercourse...surely not.

???

 

And when did government funding enter the picture? I would never support government funding of killing unborn kids. I would, however, fully support personal funding of killing unborn kids - and farming them wholesale to rob them of their stem cells.

It entered the picture when the government started funding abortions and abortion clinics through Medicaid among other sources.....around the time Roe v Wade was determined. There is a lot of info out there.

 

 

You're seeing pregnancy as the consequence and abortion as getting out of it. But you have no right to term that as a consequence.

So, exactly how is abortion not getting out of the consequences of pregnancy?

 

 

From where we sit, you appear to be on crack. You are throwing rhetoric about like an angry child slinging shit all over the room. Your arguments start by misrepresentation, which leads to the strawmen. I've never seen you do that before. Baffling really.

 

"misrepresentation"???

Really?

From where I sit, both you and iNow appear to be misrepresenting the value of human life and/or potential human life.

Who labeled an unborn child a "parasite"?

Who brought "forced reproduction" into it?

It certainly wasn't me. I firmly stand behind my statements; no matter what you might think of them.

And it certainly is not me who keeps bringing up how "inconvenient" pregnancy can be. But I will submit that pregnancy can in fact be inconvenient.

 

Abortion is often a tough issue to discuss objectively....maybe impossible. But I state firmly that I respect your opinions. I just so happen to STRONGLY disagree with them.

[iNow]

From where I sit, both you and iNow appear to be misrepresenting the value of human life and/or potential human life.

 

Quote exactly what I've said that has led you to this conclusion. Please. I don't think you can, and I do believe you're so invested in your position that you've misrepresented mine, but please... prove me wrong. Quote something I've said in this thread that leads you to believe that I:

 

misrepresent the value of human life and/or potential human life.

[DrDNA]

Quote exactly what I've said that has led you to this conclusion. Please. I don't think you can, and I do believe you're so invested in your position that you've misrepresented mine, but please... prove me wrong. Quote something I've said in this thread that leads you to believe that I:

 

We are content killing the unborn human child and intend to face the consequences of the act of killing it. We may also be content letting it grow and then living with the consequence of a human being - yippee!

 

You act like we're NOT accepting the consequences of intercourse, yet we are.

 

...................

 

From where we sit, you appear to be on crack. You are throwing rhetoric about like an angry child slinging shit all over the room. Your arguments start by misrepresentation, which leads to the strawmen. I've never seen you do that before. Baffling really.

 

"We" does not include you, iNow?

If it does not, I apologize for the misunderstanding. And if it does not, Para, please be specific regarding your OWN opinons. I can't keep up with they and we....

[iNow]

Thank you for acknowledging your mistake.

[DrDNA]

So, who is "we"?

[Reaper]

So, exactly how is abortion not getting out of the consequences of pregnancy?

 

It's already been stated before that birth control is a far better investment both economically and health-wise then continuously getting an abortion. So your objection doesn't make any sense here.

 

 

From where I sit, both you and iNow appear to be misrepresenting the value of human life and/or potential human life.

 

But they are not. They are saying that would be mothers have every right to an abortion should it become necessary.

 

Who labeled an unborn child a "parasite"?

 

Which has been corrected, and in any case that is just an irrelevant appeal.

 

Who brought "forced reproduction" into it?

 

Also irrelevant, and this is just a misrepresentation of what they were posting.

 

I firmly stand behind my statements; no matter what you might think of them.

And it certainly is not me who keeps bringing up how "inconvenient" pregnancy can be. But I will submit that pregnancy can in fact be inconvenient.

 

No one had once argued that it was an inconvenience though. You are making a huge strawman here.

 

 

But I state firmly that I respect your opinions. I just so happen to STRONGLY disagree with them.

 

 

If you respected their opinions, you wouldn't have made all the logical fallacies and ad hominems you did in the first place. And you haven't adequately justified as to why they should always forced to go along with their pregnancy in the first place.

[DrDNA]

 

 

If you respected their opinions, you wouldn't have made all the logical fallacies and ad hominems you did in the first place. And you haven't adequately justified as to why they should always forced to go along with their pregnancy in the first place.

 

Sorry but you don't know what is going on in my mind.

 

"force"? where does all this use of the term "force" come from?

I don't and have not proposed to "force" anyone to do anything.

 

Much like those sick, twisted, OFTEN misplaced, maligned...to save the life of the mother arguements, the what about incest arguments, etc, the images the pro-abrortion (aka pro-choice) machine (and yes it is a HUGE propoganda machine) tries to portray of the anti-abortion (many of us are simply anti genocide) side as a bunch of ignorant, 700 Club watching, puritanic, witch burners trying to force reproduction and pregnancies on unwilling, lucky enough to be full term people is absolutely ludacris.

 

The ACLU, planned parenthood, NOW, etc are nothing if not effective in the art of psychology and imagry. I believe that we have pretty good evidence of that here.

 

Besides, "force" is an active process; as is abortion. No abortion is not an active process, so where does all this use of force come into it?

 

I simply propose, as others have before, that abortion should at least be removed from federal funding, and preferably not exist altogether. Because it is, in my opinion, GENOCIDE and I view a human life and a potential human life (including embryos and fetuses) as MUCH more precious than of a parasite, a cow, a tumor, etc.

 

And you can't even pretend to tell me when life begins. My brother was born a little after 5 1/2 months. Was he alive? Obviously not, but he is in his early 40s now and quite healthy. So, when is it, 3 months, 6 months, able to survive outside of the womb? Nonsense. He would have DIED ON HIS OWN outside of the womb.

 

So what kind of arrogance do we have that we just remove these parasites, embryos, fetuses that "can't survive on their own", tumors or whatever you choose to call the most helpless among us out of convenience; and no one can say for certain even what or who they are? Man, that's gotta be messed up.

 

I disagree with genocide and I disagree with you regarding abortion. Period.

 

So, why is that so hard to accept?

[iNow]

Because you're trying to force your own morality on others, despite any apparent validity in that morality.

[DrDNA]

Here we go again with the force.

I'm forcing who to do what and by what mechanism?

 

If anything, I don't want physicians and often misinformed (IN MY OPINION) women who find themselves in "inconvenient" situations to force their will, and quite aggressively and permanently I might add, on very helpless victims

[iNow]

Here we go again with the force.

I'm forcing who to do what and by what mechanism?

 

It's the logical outcome if your approach is endorsed.

[DrDNA]

If you respected their opinions, you wouldn't have made all the logical fallacies and ad hominems you did in the first place. And you haven't adequately justified as to why they should always forced to go along with their pregnancy in the first place.

 

I have not made any logical fallacies.

 

"force"...what? forcing people at gunpoint into reproductive acts?

 

It's the logical outcome if your approach is endorsed.

 

Please review the definition of force.

[iNow]

Never mind, mate. Carry on about your way. Forgive me for trying to find common ground.

[foursixand2]

Can you consider rape victims abortions justifiable based upon lack of consented intent to become pregnant?

 

(m) I am Anti-Abortion, and in the case of Rape and lack of consented intent to become pregnant, I believe that abortion is not justified. Just because the mother was raped, this does not mean that the child is not a living being. If the mother still, after birth, does not want the child, she can eaisly put it up for adoption, rather than have it killed. Lack of consented intent to become pregant does not mean the child is not alive. Every being should have the opportunity to experience the world and live life the way they want to, not be killed because some man raped the mother...

 

alright dude. and im sure you came to this opinion after you were impregnated by a rapist? Surely you wouldn't have made such a remark without having carried to term your own pregnancy which was initiated by the most traumatic experience of your life? Or after you discovered you were the child of your raped mother?

 

Correct me if im wrong, but this must have happened to either you, or your mother, or your sister, or your daughter, for you to think you had the right to speak on such a subject.

 

For which i express my deepest sympathies that you had the misfortune to be so near to such a horrific tribulation. I cant imagine the bravery you must have, to have been through that experience and to maintain such beliefs.

 

Just because the mother was raped . . . .

 

WOW . . . thank god you never have to meet me face to face.

[DrDNA]

They are saying that would be mothers have every right to an abortion should it become necessary.

Please define "necessary".

[iNow]

Wouldn't it be best to ask the pregnant female to define necessary as it pertains to her? Your "necessary" and my "necessary" really have no bearing on the pregnant females "necessary."

[Reaper]

We can list all of the possible scenarios for which abortion could be considered necessary, even arbitrary or immoral or otherwise bad reasons. But in the end, it doesn't really matter; the fact that some may genuinely need it for health related reasons (whether specific to the mother or the unborn fetus) is reason enough for abortion to be allowed and for women to have the choice in opting for one.

[Revenged]

We can list all of the possible scenarios for which abortion could be considered necessary, even arbitrary or immoral or otherwise bad reasons. But in the end, it doesn't really matter; the fact that some may genuinely need it for health related reasons (whether specific to the mother or the unborn fetus) is reason enough for abortion to be allowed and for women to have the choice in opting for one.

 

You say that...

 

However, in some countries abortion is still illegal. For example, in Ireland and Northern Ireland.

 

There was a massive case in the news a few months ago as there was a 17 year old girl who had a foetus with anencephaly...

 

Anencephaly is where the anterior neuropore does not close (open posterior neuropore = spinda bifida)...

 

Anencephaly is a death sentence. The foetus will die minutes/hours... Normally it is crushed during the birth since the foetus has no skull and so the brain open to the environment...

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6618911.stm

 

The Irish government tried to prevent her travelling to england to get an abortion... The case had to go to the High Court... Most of the Irish public were against it (sharp contast to here - we have very liberal abortion laws in england + scotland)... But cases such as these made a mockery of their 'legal system' if you consider that anyone over 18 can hop over to England to have an abortion (tens of thousand Irish do this every year)...

[john5746]

"force"? where does all this use of the term "force" come from?

I don't and have not proposed to "force" anyone to do anything.

 

Besides, "force" is an active process; as is abortion. No abortion is not an active process, so where does all this use of force come into it?

 

When you start "forcing" people into jail.

 

Much like those sick, twisted, OFTEN misplaced, maligned...to save the life of the mother arguements, the what about incest arguments, etc, the images the pro-abrortion (aka pro-choice) machine (and yes it is a HUGE propoganda machine) tries to portray of the anti-abortion (many of us are simply anti genocide) side as a bunch of ignorant, 700 Club watching, puritanic, witch burners trying to force reproduction and pregnancies on unwilling, lucky enough to be full term people is absolutely ludacris.

 

The ACLU, planned parenthood, NOW, etc are nothing if not effective in the art of psychology and imagry. I believe that we have pretty good evidence of that here.

 

Yeah, to aspire to the Pro-Life movement. They are the model to follow.

 

I simply propose, as others have before, that abortion should at least be removed from federal funding, and preferably not exist altogether.

 

I agree with you here, except as a medical procedure - for the life of the woman. Choice doesn't mean "someone else pay for it"

 

 

And you can't even pretend to tell me when life begins. My brother was born a little after 5 1/2 months. Was he alive? Obviously not, but he is in his early 40s now and quite healthy. So, when is it, 3 months, 6 months, able to survive outside of the womb? Nonsense. He would have DIED ON HIS OWN outside of the womb.

 

What rights does a fertilized egg have seperate from the mother? If it is in a dish, what rights exist? IMO, only if the fertilized egg is going to be brought to full term does the egg have rights. It should not be altered or damaged in such a way as to bring a suffering human into existance. Can it be thrown away? Of course it can. There are some property rights, but nothing like murder would be considered. So, the main difference is the action of removing the egg from the womb, not the loss of the egg itself.

 

With real genocide, it is bad regardless of the action or inaction.

[DrDNA]

When you start "forcing" people into jail.

 

For the record, I haven't forced anybody to jail and do not have that capacity.

So who is this "you" that is "forcing" people into jail? Me?

What people are being forced into jail?

 

 

I must say, it is amazing how quickly those who do not agree with abortion are vilified.

 

Yeah, to aspire to the Pro-Life movement. They are the model to follow.

I don't understand what you mean. Who is to follow who, where and why ?

 

 

What rights does a fertilized egg have seperate from the mother? If it is in a dish, what rights exist? IMO, only if the fertilized egg is going to be brought to full term does the egg have rights. It should not be altered or damaged in such a way as to bring a suffering human into existance. Can it be thrown away? Of course it can. There are some property rights, but nothing like murder would be considered.

 

"Full term" is generally accepted to be 36 to 42 weeks (some consider it to begin closer to 38). You really believe that anything less than 36 weeks should be considered garbage can fodder?

 

So, the main difference is the action of removing the egg from the womb, not the loss of the egg itself.

What your point is here is not clear to me at all.

An egg is not fertilized. Egg -> Egg is fert -> zygote -> embryo -> fetus

I'm pretty certain that most people don't have a problem with unfertilized eggs. I certainly do not.

 

Are you refering to a zygote, a fetus and/or an embryo??

 

 

With real genocide, it is bad regardless of the action or inaction.

What is "real" genocide? "bad"?

[john5746]

For the record, I haven't forced anybody to jail and do not have that capacity.

So who is this "you" that is "forcing" people into jail? Me?

What people are being forced into jail?

 

 

I must say, it is amazing how quickly those who do not agree with abortion are vilified.

 

I thought you wanted to make abortion illegal, which would require punishment of some sort. If you just claim it is immoral, I have no problem with that.

 

 

I don't understand what you mean. Who is to follow who, where and why ?

 

You were complaining about the Pro-Choice "machine". Well my friend, there is a Pro-Life machine as well and they are preaching everywhere and have strong political and media ties themselves.

 

"Full term" is generally accepted to be 36 to 42 weeks (some consider it to begin closer to 38). You really believe that anything less than 36 weeks should be considered garbage can fodder?

 

What your point is here is not clear to me at all.

An egg is not fertilized. Egg -> Egg is fert -> zygote -> embryo -> fetus

I'm pretty certain that most people don't have a problem with unfertilized eggs. I certainly do not.

 

Are you refering to a zygote, a fetus and/or an embryo??

 

No, I didn't say that. I mean a fertilized egg in a dish compared to one in the womb.

 

 

What is "real" genocide? "bad"?

 

African children starving to death vs a bunch of fertilized eggs thrown in the garbage because Bush doesn't want them used for research.

[DrDNA]

African children starving to death vs a bunch of fertilized eggs thrown in the garbage because Bush doesn't want them used for research.

 

Ah. Yes. The images of all those starving African children with flies in their eyes and of George W throwing perfectly good embryonic stems cells in garbage cans.

 

If only we aborted more fetuses, it would be better.

[ParanoiA]

If only we aborted more fetuses, it would be better.

 

No, it would be better to farm them and use their stem cells to advance medicine and quality of life for the humans we allowed to live. Assuming that is, if it's even necessary.

[Nick_Spanich]

How do you tell a child that 'your father raped your mother'?

 

OK let's discuss the difference between sex and rape. Rape is when sexual activity is forced on ones self. When someone is raped they are forced to have sex. And they will assualt is necessesary and cause harm. Sex Is when two both agree in intercourse. Which is usually to have a child.

 

I am strongly againt abortion. (M) 13

 

f(17) i am pro choice except in the case when it is just for convenience. people should consider the possibilty of pregnancy before they have sex, even if it is protected.

 

I can't agree more. People need to think. ANd you think with all the stds people would brighten up

[iNow]

I can't agree more. People need to think. ANd you think with all the stds people would brighten up

You seem to lack an understanding on just how powerful is the control hormones have on behavior, and the power they hold on us after all these millenia of evolution.