Acids and water

[sunspot]

If we react H2 and Cl2 we get 2HCL. The H is covalently bonded to Cl. This is a polar molecule with the H side being positive and the Cl side being negative. This molecular polarization is due to the high electronegativty of Cl and the stability created by completing its octet of electrons

 

If we dissolve HCl in water the covalent bond break forming two ions; the H+ cation and the Cl- anion. Although these two ions will charge balance within neutral water, (ionic charges should cancel) the affect within water will be highly electrophilic due to the acid H+ aspect of HCl having a much greater impact that the basic Cl- aspect.

 

In other words, although the Cl- is nucleophilic due to the extra electron causing its negative charge, and the H+ is electrophilic due to the needs of its positive charge, and the two charges should cancel, and the aqueous solution should be neutral, the impact of the two charges is disproportionate.

 

What this suggests is that something more than a simple charge dipole is present ,since charge alone can not explain the disproportionate potential within the water. One logical explanation has to do with the magnetic addition within the P-orbitals of highly electronegative atoms, cancelling the impact of the negative charge.

 

NMR or nuclear magnetic resonance is tuned to the magnetic fields stemming from the hydrogen proton. The H+ not only needs to balance its positive charge with an electron, but also needs to do it in a way that is additive to the magnetic fields stemming from the hydrogen proton. As such, the H+ has a double potential, while the Cl- has diminished charge and magnetic potential due to its octet stability.

 

If we look at the P-orbitals they exist as similar lobe pairs along the x,y,z, axis. This 3-dimensional arrangement of perpendicular axis, simlar orbital lobes, is highly beneficial to EM addition. A moving electron will have a negative charge that will set up a magnetic field perpendicular to the direction of current. The electrostatic force stemming from the charge of the electron wll be perpendicular to these two directions. The x,y,z arrangment allows the magnetic force from an electron, moving in one directional lobe, to always run in the same direction as the charge force in another perpendicular lobe. The unification of the EM force implies that the EM fields in the P-prbitals become one when they overlap with the same EM field direction. For Cl- this will lower the impact of its negative charge.

[insane_alien]

WTF? i've never seen any evidence for this. i've made acidic solutions thousands of times(probably still only in the hundreds but you know...) and i've never seen anything to sugest that the solution is in anyway charged. i think your talk a load of smelly underpants.

[sunspot]

I did not not say that the acid solution was charged. I said that the electrophilic affect dominates the nucleoplilic effect even though there is balanced charge within the H+ and Cl- ions. I also said that something more than charge has to be at work to explain the net electrophilic potential of this acid; magnetic addition within the P-orbitals.

[insane_alien]

you seemed to be saying that the negative charge of the Cl- was somehow reduced. The electrophilic effect does appear outweigh the nucleophilic effect because the Cl- has an octet in its outer shell which is inherently stable and the hydrogen hasn't got anything. This apparent difference is caused by the increased reactivity of the H+ and decreased reactivity of the Cl- due to the aforementioned electron arrangements. the only thing magnetic addition to the p orbitals has to do with this is that they become full and the chloride ion is more stable than the hydrogen. its all reaction rates.

[jdurg]

I had always thought that in an aqueous acid, the hydrogen ions don't exist as a free proton. They "attach" themselves to a water molecule forming H3O+ whereby all three hydrogens have two electrons they can play with.

[insane_alien]

d'oh can't believe i missed that i was revising that very thing. the test is up a certain creek without a paddle methinks

[The Thing]

What is the real name of H3O+? I've always called it hydroxonium but my teacher tried to force me to call it hydronium...

[jdurg]

What is the real name of H3O+? I've always called it hydroxonium but my teacher tried to force me to call it hydronium...

 

I believe that hydronium is correct because the "hydrox" prefix would indicate an -OH group attached to something while "hydro" would indicate a hydrogen atom attached to something. Therefore by logic the "hydronium" name is more appropriate.

[insane_alien]

yeah its real name is hydronium. I'm sure i recall a movie/tv show set in space or something where that was a metal used as armour. what a load of bull excrement that was.

[sunspot]

If we take an aqueous Na+ Cl- solution, there are still two balancing opposite charges, just like H+ and Cl-, yet the solution will show a better balance between nucleophilic and electrophilic potential.

 

In the case of H+, or H3O+ and Cl-, the extra electrophilic potential is analogous (loosely speaking) to the acid solution having more positive charge than negative charhe therefore needing more electron density to neutralize the potential. The NaCl in water doesn't show this extra (loosely speaking) positive charge.

 

In the case of HCl, it is the diminished negative charge (loosely speaking) of Cl-, that makes the potential of H+ single positive charge much more pronounced. With respect to NaCl both Na+ and Cl- show diminished charge (loosely speaking) compared to H+.

[sunspot]

Based on these simple observations, I came up with a new theory of electronegativity. This theory has not been proven, but it correlates all the atomic data perfectly. It only requires some simple physics. I present it for approval or criticism.

 

If a charge is stationary, the electrostatic force will eminate from the charge in all directions, radially. If we give the charge motion, the direction of the current (so to speak) will set up a magnetic field. using the right-hand rule. The thumb points in the direction of the current and the magnetic field curls like concentric circles with the fingers around this axis. One may notice that the radial electrostatic force, direction of current and the magnetic field are all perpendicular in 3-dimensions.

 

The highest electronegative atoms all have one thing in common, P-orbtials for their outer most electrons. The P-orbtials are beautifully balanced in shape and in 3-dimensions. This implies that that movement of electrons, in say the x-lobe, allows the current and magnetic field direction to run parallel to something the other two y,z lobes. This gives full addition of the vectors.

 

The S-orbitals only allow two electrons and the negative charge will attempt to separate the two electrons, flattening them into a plane. As such, these two electrons can not create the 3 dimensional perfection of the P-orbitals. The D and F orbtials are also imperfect with respect to 3-dimensional symmetry. This prevents all the vectors from being parallel and balanced, within the S, D and F orbitials.

 

The net result is that P-orbitals are able to hold electrons the tightest due to the perfect 3-dimensional vector addition making such atoms the most electronegative. The rest of the orbtials lose this extra stability, via their 3-dimesional imperfections making them less electronegative. As one goes down the periodic table in a family of atoms, an extra layer or two of the imperfect S and/or D orbtials will diminish the perfection of, say the outer P-orbital, thereby lowering the electronegativity.

 

My gut tells me that one should be able to predict atomic properties by simply adding all the vector contributions within all its layers of orbitals. This again has not been proven.

[The Thing]

For H3O+, it appears that its correct name, according to IUPAC nomenclature, is oxonium. Hmm...confusing. I searched for hydroxonium in wikipedia, it got redirected to hydronium. The article is here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydronium