Why do some vegetarians/Vegans think...

[Phi for All]

Film the plant in time lapse and you're see the growing tip waving around randomly until it hits something it likes.

Ixnay on the ikes-lay. It's more like a plumbing snake in the pipes; it's going to unthinkingly (and unfeelingly) steer to where there's an opening, fueled by it's own growth mechanism.

Yeah, but then so would you if you were in a maze and had no idea where you were going.

Unlike me, however, the plant can't make the decision to sit down in frustration and refuse to traverse the maze. If it met a dead end and couldn't find a way out it would continue to bunch up until further growth was impossible.

[Jadey12]

Plants have no brain or nervous system, thus they cannot perceive that they are being "hurt" or killed. Many people believe that because of this, they are not really killing it, even though a plant has life.

 

But think of it this way, if you don't eat meat then you are left with plants and their products (plus some animal products if you are not vegan); if you decide it's un-ethical to eat any animal products you are left with plants and their products; after that, if you eliminate plants from your diet, not only is there no way for you to get the nutrients that you need, but you are left with only a small number of plant products to eat. So basically, if you are vegetarian/vegan you have almost no choice but to eat plants, even if you think it's not right to take any life.

[bombus]

If it's so wrong for humans to kill and eat animals, then why is it not wrong for animals to eat other animals. If it's so wrong then why aren't we stopping animals from eating other animals by separating them or whatnot. Some people might say "well that's just nature, that's how animals are." If that's so, then my eating a hamburger should be considered nature......Just an idea.

 

There are many reasons why people are vegetarian. Some just don't like meat, some don't like farming practices as it is often cruel, some don't like to kill animals, some will only eat meat if they kill it/find it themselves etc.

 

For those that don't like to kill animals the issue is often personal, and is basically "if I don't need to eat animals to survive then I will not eat them". Non-human animals do not have a choice, and furthermore, have no opinions on the rights and wrongs of killing animals to eat.

 

You're hamburger idea is fine, but does not take into account the cruelty and habitat destruction that can often be involved in producing that hamburger. I usually only eat free-range 'ethically farmed' meat for this reason and also don't actually eat meat that often.

 

Many plants have benefited by evolving to cope and even thrive by being eaten. This is why fruits are nice to eat - the seeds are spread by animals that eat them. Grass can cope with being grazed as it grows from the bottom, and in grazed habitats dominates (e.g the North American plains and the Savannahs).

 

An interesting point is that in biomass terms perhaps the most successful organism on the planet is wheat. It's so successful that it even pushes mankind out of huge areas of the planet! Also, in biomass terms there is more cow on the planet than human. By being good to eat a symbiotic relationship with man has developed which has made cows very successful organisms.

[Jadey12]

There are many reasons why people are vegetarian. Some just don't like meat, some don't like farming practices as it is often cruel, some don't like to kill animals, some will only eat meat if they kill it/find it themselves etc.

 

For those that don't like to kill animals the issue is often personal, and is basically "if I don't need to eat animals to survive then I will not eat them". Non-human animals do not have a choice, and furthermore, have no opinions on the rights and wrongs of killing animals to eat.

 

You're hamburger idea is fine, but does not take into account the cruelty and habitat destruction that can often be involved in producing that hamburger. I usually only eat free-range 'ethically farmed' meat for this reason and also don't actually eat meat that often.

 

Many plants have benefited by evolving to cope and even thrive by being eaten. This is why fruits are nice to eat - the seeds are spread by animals that eat them. Grass can cope with being grazed as it grows from the bottom, and in grazed habitats dominates (e.g the North American plains and the Savannahs).

 

An interesting point is that in biomass terms perhaps the most successful organism on the planet is wheat. It's so successful that it even pushes mankind out of huge areas of the planet! Also, in biomass terms there is more cow on the planet than human. By being good to eat a symbiotic relationship with man has developed which has made cows very successful organisms.

 

 

^I totally agree with all of that^. Though I would like to add that some people are vegetarian because they believe that meat is unhealthy for them and a number of people are vegan because they do not think that dairy and other animal products are healthy. Also, when people get older they often become intolerant to many animal products, especially dairy, so they stop eating them altogether.

[someguy]

You're hamburger idea is fine, but does not take into account the cruelty and habitat destruction that can often be involved in producing that hamburger.

 

 

Probably everything else you do in your lifestyle ruins habitats much more than eating meat. I think a lot of people are so worried about killing animals using animals for fur and eating animals. But really this is the best thing for them given our nature. because eventually the only animals left will be those that produce profit, or things like rats and seagulls and pigeons that can live in cities off of us humans. Sure that would mean all animals would be in captivity but captivity is better than extinct and extinct is what they will become if there is no money in having them exist and money in taking away what they need to survive. So save the animals and wear fur.

[bombus]

Probably everything else you do in your lifestyle ruins habitats much more than eating meat.

 

Maybe so, but we were talking about vegetarianism. However, the farming of Soya and crops tends to use high doses of pesticides, fertilizers, and increasingly GM, and involves the felling of rainforests - so you can't escape just by being a veggie!

 

I think a lot of people are so worried about killing animals using animals for fur and eating animals. But really this is the best thing for them given our nature. because eventually the only animals left will be those that produce profit, or things like rats and seagulls and pigeons that can live in cities off of us humans. Sure that would mean all animals would be in captivity but captivity is better than extinct and extinct is what they will become if there is no money in having them exist and money in taking away what they need to survive. So save the animals and wear fur.

 

An interesting POV. I should disagree being a conservationist, but alas you are probably right!

[Jadey12]

"However, the farming of Soya and crops tends to use high doses of pesticides, fertilizers, and increasingly GM, and involves the felling of rainforests - so you can't escape just by being a veggie!"-bombus

 

Not all vegitarians eat soy.

[imp]

 

Why can't its seed be left to create more corn?

 

.

 

In today's world, it won't create more corn because the planted corn is hybridized seed stock, genetically altered by changing genes, often, in the case of corn, adding those of e. coli. These seeds are sterile, and produce no corn usable as seed stock.

 

Perhaps I convey the impression that I do not favor hybridization of plants?

 

imp

[lucaspa]

There are many reasons why people are vegetarian. Some just don't like meat, some don't like farming practices as it is often cruel, some don't like to kill animals, some will only eat meat if they kill it/find it themselves etc. For those that don't like to kill animals the issue is often personal, and is basically "if I don't need to eat animals to survive then I will not eat them".

 

You're hamburger idea is fine, but does not take into account the cruelty and habitat destruction that can often be involved in producing that hamburger.

 

How about the cruelty and habitat destruction that goes with agriculture? How many animals are killed as the plow goes thru the field each spring? How many animals starved to death as their habitat was destroyed to make the farm?

 

Vegetarianism also ends up killing animals, it's just that it is second hand, not direct. So they tend to pretend it doesn't exist.

[Jadey12]

Some vegitarians grow their own food in their own backyard.

[ecoli]

How about the cruelty and habitat destruction that goes with agriculture? How many animals are killed as the plow goes thru the field each spring? How many animals starved to death as their habitat was destroyed to make the farm?

 

Vegetarianism also ends up killing animals, it's just that it is second hand, not direct. So they tend to pretend it doesn't exist.

 

Or maybe they object to raising animals with intent on killing them for food.

 

I know a lot of vegetarians who would give up their vegetarianism, if most animals were hunted, and not grown on farms.

[ParanoiA]

Some vegitarians grow their own food in their own backyard.

 

And murder countless species of insects, bugs, and etc. Murderous humans...always killing something aren't you?

[someguy]

If no animals were grown on farms we'd probably be out of animals by now.

[Sayonara]

If no animals were grown on farms we'd probably be out of animals by now.

 

Vegetarians seem to be largely aware of this. I believe their stance is somewhere in the region of "instead of causing further suffering to meet our meat requirements, we should reduce those requirements".

[ecoli]

Vegetarians seem to be largely aware of this. I believe their stance is somewhere in the region of "instead of causing further suffering to meet our meat requirements, we should reduce those requirements".

 

and there's plenty of evidence that our current rate of meat consumption is unhealthy... even if it may not be necessary to reduce them to "vegetarian standards"

[Jadey12]

And murder countless species of insects, bugs, and etc. Murderous humans...always killing something aren't you?

 

That statement implies that you are not a human...

[Sayonara]

You could also infer from that simply that he does not consider himself to be a murderous human.

[someguy]

the human body is designed to desire those foods it needs after having tasted them a few times. If i'm hungry for meat it's because there's some kind of substance in there my body is requesting. If too many animals die from too much meat consumption it is not because each individual consumes too much meat it is because too many humans exist compared to the size of our planet and its capacity to sustain life in evolutionary terms.

[lucaspa]

Or maybe they object to raising animals with intent on killing them for food.

 

I know a lot of vegetarians who would give up their vegetarianism, if most animals were hunted, and not grown on farms.

 

That makes no sense. Put another way, it is internally contradictory. If the premise is to avoid meat because of the pain caused to animals, then the animals suffer just as much pain when killed during the hunt (and probably more) than being raised on a farm.

 

And how about growing plants on farms with the intent of killing them for food?

[lucaspa]

Some vegitarians grow their own food in their own backyard.

 

So? you have still converted the natural habitat to a small farm! And displaced animals with the garden and/or directly killed them when you tilled the soil.

 

You don't change the conssequences because you have a farm to feed one person rather than a farm to feed hundreds.

[lucaspa]

and there's plenty of evidence that our current rate of meat consumption is unhealthy... even if it may not be necessary to reduce them to "vegetarian standards"

 

Define "unhealthy".

 

Also, you have to distinguish between eating and overeating -- as in overeating anything, including carrots. If you overeat in carrots, you end up with hypervitaminosis A, which is unhealthy.

[ecoli]

Define "unhealthy".

 

for example:

 

http://www.goveg.com/cancer.asp

[qwe)k]

*new member* don't flame me if i am wrong. I'm 15 and i love (Not just interested in) science and I want a better understanding. So this is one of my methods of trying to learn, you all pretty intellectual.. hopefully i learn from all of you^^

Any way, i find eating meat contradicts most of peoples morals, never mind weather its healthy or not. Its a matter of your ethical choice. Eating meat (as a human) would be living by ethics which you contradict. Most average meat eaters don't put this in the equations of their lives

 

Most of the threads on this science forum are to complicated for me, but the things i kind of understand il try to take part in. Please tell me if my vocabulary is bad

 

and as you probably guessed, im a veggie^^ please tell me if i have got anything wrong, and yes i know there is another argument to my short point above^^

[bombus]

That makes no sense. Put another way, it is internally contradictory. If the premise is to avoid meat because of the pain caused to animals, then the animals suffer just as much pain when killed during the hunt (and probably more) than being raised on a farm.

 

And how about growing plants on farms with the intent of killing them for food?

 

It's about 'respect' for other animals. The life a wild animal has is better than certain types of factory farming as an animal can express its natural behaviour.

 

Its more to do with how the animal lives rather than how it dies. However, free-range farming is maybe a pretty good compromise.

[bombus]

So? you have still converted the natural habitat to a small farm! And displaced animals with the garden and/or directly killed them when you tilled the soil.

 

You don't change the conssequences because you have a farm to feed one person rather than a farm to feed hundreds.

 

True, but there are degrees. Organic farming for example, even in your back garden, can often benefit many of the rarer wild species of inverts. We can't live and have no impact, but we can try to 'tread more gently' on the Earth.