aman Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I am putting this here in genetics forum only because I wish to discuss evolutionary pressure and not psychic phenomena pro or con. If there was a genetic connection to psychic ability you would have to imagine it would give an individual an advantage to be psychic and so the expression of this gene would probably be expressed in nearly everybody by now. How many people would be alive if they didn't go around that corner, if they ducked before the bullet hit, or if they didn't drive somewhere. It seems psychic ability is not genetic since we still have the same odds of getting killed and that is probably where we would see the greatest influence of its expression. In survival situations. I just feel if there was a genetic connection to psychic abilities then we would see a much stronger expression of it due to natural selection by now. Just aman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VendingMenace Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 hmmm...interesting argument. I like it But of course, just for the sake of argument, i will step to the plate. Your argument assumes two things (actually three) things. 1) Psychic abilities is an advantage 2) It is large enough of an advantage to be selected for 3) The gene for psychic ability is not located near to a gene that is detrimental to survival. As far as assumption 1 goes, perhaps there are drawbacks to this ability. LIke depression resulting from being able to see the future. Or perhaps knowing the future causes you to act more cazily than if you did not. On the whole, however, these seem to strech a bit, so i would agree that psychic ability would seem to lend an advantage. At the very least, being able to see the future or far away doesn't seem like it should be disadvantagous. Which leads us to point 2. That is, that psycic ability is not strong enough to be infuenced by selction pressures. If something does not really effect us one way or the other, then it is not really selected for. Take wisdom teeth, for instance. For the most part, having wisdom teeth is a disadvantage, for they do not really fit into our modern mouths. Thus, having wisdom teeth can cause great pain or infection when the emerge. However, it is not really that much of a disadvantage, becuase we know how to deal with these problems now. As such, there is really not much pressure being exerted for or against wisdom teeth and the frequency of wisdom teeth just kinda floats around in a population. This is known as "genetic drift." The point being that this could also be the case with pychic abilities. That is, they are advantagous, but not really all that much, so there is not a whole lot of selection pressure selecting for it. THus, we find that psycich abilities would not really be selected for. Lastly, the psychic gene could be located really close to a gene that is heavily disadvantageous. Perhaps a gene associated with parkensins disease or something. Thus, the harmful gene would be selected against and the psycic gene would reduce in frequency as a result of this. Well, i lied, i guess there is one more reason. Perhaps psychic abilities are present in potential but the ability to use them must be learned. Thus, since psychic abilites are somewhat dismissed in our society, most people would not ever learn how. This is not really a genetic reason, but i thought i would throw it out for fun Anywyas that is my thougts for right now. Cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafalone Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 When considering a genetic trait becoming more common, you have to consider whether or not it will increase the chances of survival. Psychic ability would do this. New features arising comes out of mutations, and all possible mutations have not happened yet; so it's still possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 There is also a school of thought, that says that ancient civilisations (Incas, Mayans, Aztecs, Tolteks etc...) HAD psychic abilities, and that over the ages we`ve "forgotten" how to use them? so maybe we`re moving Away from it rather than forwards? but to My way of thinking, until Psychic ability can be proven, there`s no way to have a deffinative answer to your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blike Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 If there was a genetic connection to psychic ability you would have to imagine it would give an individual an advantage to be psychic and so the expression of this gene would probably be expressed in nearly everybody by now. Thats very much true; assuming that psychic abilities aren't a recent mutation. As someone mentioned before, they would most certainly prove advantageous, provided they allowed us to sense things other humans could not sense; i.e. impending danger. The population with psychic abilities would quickly overcome the non-psychic population. When considering a genetic trait becoming more common, you have to consider whether or not it will increase the chances of survival. I'm sure this is implied (or understood); but I want to clarify anyways. It is important to consider the chance of reproduction, not necessarily the chance of survival. Survival dictates reproduction for the most part; but not always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aman Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 An idea presented often in movies and the series Babylon 5 contend that getting a sample of blood from the best psychic would open the secret to the genetics of psychic phenomena. Now if you consider in the past that Shamans, voodoo priests, and witch doctors may have had some level of psychic abilities and yet their ratio to the general population stayed the same generally throughout history, Then it's pretty hard to relate it to genetics. A genetic expression that advantageous should spread to everybody yet a great majority of people go through life knowing they are normal or have a little curiosity due to the chance coincidences that are bound to happen. Most self proclaimed psychics are delusional or hoaxers. I just argue that if it exists it is a phenomena of the mind and not a product of genetics. Just aman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafalone Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Even if they had gotten Lyta's blood sample, it's not likely they could figure out something the Vorlons did. And isolating the gene responsible for a particular trait would require far more than 1 person with the activated version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 i'm not sure how to exactly say what i think about it, which is basically the same as what other people have said. Even though it gives them chances to survive against certain dangers inescapable to non-psychics, the trait of being psychic doesn't really effect reproduction. This is largely because of the complex lives of humans, so there are so many other factors beside those directly related to maintaining biological function--- that matters of natural selection have more to do with psychology than biology--- you have to at least admit the balance of that is significantly different than other organims. So despite its advantage, psychics dont reproduce any different than regular people so their genes remain rare. SO i propose we hunt down all the psychic people of the world, and breed them like crazy, and from then on require all with the psychic gene to breed only in ways that make the psychic gene more prevelant. Just kidding that sounds very inhumane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aman Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 I was just considering the fact that millions of people play lotto nationwide and the number of winners seems to accurately demonstrate the laws of chance are valid and nobody has an edge. The number of winners should be way skewed if there was a true psychic effect being favored in the population. Just aman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Maybe psychics dont care about the lotto--- actually thats a good point, i think that some of them would. Speaking of chance, have you heard of the guy who got struck by lightening 7 times in his life, without really doing anything that stupid . . . . i think i saw it on the discovery channel, i'll look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Roy C Sullivan is his name, he was a park ranger ---- i cant find a bio to proove that he wasn't asking for it, but if i remember right, acording to the record its not like he would attach himself to a lightening rod during a storm. But, i don't know if anyone was ever there when it happened. He killed himself in '83, maybe he had depression or something and lightening was his creative suicide attempts. And he was a park ranger, being forrests have lots of trees, it does bring up the chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafalone Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 NavajoEverclear said in post #8 :the trait of being psychic doesn't really effect reproduction. This is largely because of the complex lives of humans, so there are so many other factors beside those directly related to maintaining biological function--- that matters of natural selection have more to do with psychology than biology--- you have to at least admit the balance of that is significantly different than other organims. So despite its advantage, psychics dont reproduce any different than regular people so their genes remain rare. But you have to consider the social interactions. A male psychic could manipulate women into loving him; and if this were coupled with a trait that would have otherwise made him an undesirable mate, the frequency would increase. Also, someone with psychic ability would be more desirable to a large group, thereby also increasing the frequency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aman Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 When the group supports your survival, say as a Shaman there should be a pressure towards that genetic trait being continued and expressed. Still the general population continues to score on the level of statistical chance on tests of psychic abilities. If psychic ability exists and there are as many have seen examples of unexplainable events that are hard to write off as chance, then it has to be argued it is attributable to something else. The end result is it closes an avenue of proof. Just aman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Maybe pyschic people have morals and don't want to manipulate people to love them Also it could be caused by other things, either that or variable by other factors. Perhaps a larger percentage of the population carries the gene for extrasensory perceptions, or even the trait, and perhaps its so fragile that something else prevents its expression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo_maya Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Do u think that psychic power only means "to control someone" like Professor XXevier. Then Please Do not read this post. I am surely the dumbest person to speak about psychic abilities, but I wanted to say something. I have never believed in these kind of stuff. And never seen someone with this special gift. So, it is kinda hard for me or someone else to believe in these matters. But here's what I mean to say - I think u have all read Erich Maria Remarque's "All Quiet On The Western Front". There was this line - or something like this - when they were in the front, sometimes they would just kneel down, or jump or begin to run, only to see a splinter or a bullet pass by. That small jump or nudge just saved their life maybe for next 40 years. Does it mean that they all had these abilities? Because, maybe they just saved their lives for today but the next day he couldn't dodge the bullet. So, doesn't it mean it was just the instinct - if u live in the jungle u can sence the snakes - I have heard the beduins can smell water and sence desert storms. Here is a small personal life experience - Once some of my friends (including me) skipped school (........to play a game ....nothing evil) and when we're entering the school at the recess time - (this is true) - I said to one of my friend that maybe we shouldn't go in. And that day we were all caught red handed and our parents were called and bla .... bla .....bla....bla...... Another true story - oneday the phone rang, and as I was picking it up - I suddenly thought that maybe it was Zisun (a friend of mine - whom by the way I hadn't seen for like a year) and there he was saying - hi. There're lots of these stories - and I mean to say that it has probably happened to u a number of times and maybe u haven't noticed or ignored it. Maybe u were picking up the phone thinking of someone or thinking that this call has a good news or a bad news - and- there u go - ............... I think these are all wishfull thinking. Maybe in ur subconcious mind u were thinking of something or expecing something bad and it just by chance happened. I mean every thing can happen in a number of ways - and if by any chance that thing happened just as u expected might just not be psychic power or extrasensory perception or mental telepathy. I mean there are a number of times when things don't go the way u wanted (but someone else might have expected that result). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 you know what, i totally agree with that. What is often called being psychic and such could be an unconcious incredible in tuneness with our natural senses. Its really more amazing that our minds can put certain things together, than that we conciously have something extra. Of coarse the potential to have such powers of elite resourcefulness of the senses--- would in a degree be genetic, because personality and intelligence have a lot to do with that. I used to believe that everyone had the same potential, but then i thought---- there are handicapped people who obviously and testably have real problems with their brain, which is often genetic, and so varying degrees of intelligence must exist between the extremes. BUT thats not to say that some who appear to have less potential do not have it, there is always hope, they just may need to work harder, and perhaps their 'intelligence' is just focussed in different function than what is commonly valued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 in which case amans thread presents a good point. Though 'psychic' abilities may not be supernatural, and would occur in varying degrees, wouldn't those with higher degrees of intuneness be more attractive, therefore more likely to have more offspring. What we call psychic probably has more basis on how one interprets natural senses, and i think this fact should actually make those traits more common. Extremes might devote there lives to the supernatural, or have various other things going on that actually have an adverse effect on reproduction. There would be a higher percent of the population who have more mild degrees of 'psychic'ness, and their abilities being more mild would be not differenent enough to have adverse effects, but unique enough to make them more attractive--- so we should be seeing a rise in these abilites. Maybe we are, and are looking to hard for extreme 'real' psychics, that we don't see the gradual, but significant rise of people more intune with their sense being more common. Like what Neo said: maybe we just don't notice these things in our own lives, but i have noticed-- just small things that are taken for granted. In conclusion (i want to resolve me point admist that freethought paragraph which may contain extensive babbling) i think we may be naturally selecting psychics to become more concentrated in the gene pool. The reason we dont see it is because our assumed defintion that psychic is a HUGE difference, when in fact it is a significant one of great value, but not as noticable or distinct as we expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aman Posted October 11, 2003 Author Share Posted October 11, 2003 Scientists have recently identified a gene that when passed on from both parents to children will protect from the plague. It was under extreme evolutionary pressure during the Black Plague and during an investigation in a small town in England where history said most of the population survived or didn't get sick at all, the DNA of the present residents showed about 13% still retained this gene. It is a very positive immune system gene and yet it is getting thinned out in the society. Maybe if there was a gene for psychic ability it would be thinned out also since once your successful and marry into the upper crust, your taking your great genes into the interbred trash pool of rich buttheads. By the way, if you have both anti-plague genes your also immune to aids. It's a great gene and should have incredible pressure for expression but some reason doesn't after hundreds of years. Just aman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo_maya Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Could u place the url? Or is it this one - http://slate.msn.com/id/2073372/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aman Posted October 11, 2003 Author Share Posted October 11, 2003 That's the one I watched. It traces a man who has all the risk factors for AIDs and all his friends have died and yet he doesn't have it. They found he has the same pair of genes they think protected people from the plague. In the lab his blood is exposed to 200 times the AIDs virus need for infection along with lots of control blood samples and his blood still remained the only sample free of infection. It's too bad the gene only developed in European blood since the African, Asian, and Indian populations are being devastated by AIDS. Watch the PBS special. It's fascinating and thanks for posting the URL. Just aman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 immune to aids, holy crap they better be researching ways to give this gene to the rest of us. Do you think it also has resistence to other usually incurable problems, like cancer? Where i live cancer is very high, in a radius around the airforce base and the burnplant (they are next to each other so who knows which, or if a combination is causing it). I would be extremely interested in saving anymore people i know from dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo_maya Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Yes, these things r really amazing. I really wonder when the scientists will actually begin to understand the functions of all of the genes. It's true we still have a long way to go - this leads to another question - what happened to the gene mapping thing? (though I don't understand this things well) - there was suddenly a lot of talking going on and suddenly it stopped - and all these things I think leads to the eventual question - should cloning be allowed? This brings up another thought in my mind - although I personally think cloning should be banned at once, but I think cloning can be a good answer to ur first question - we will be able to know if we're moving towards these abilities or moving away from it. "These r all just some crap out of my really fertile head - u r all welcome to ignore me and u may also book a place for me in the mental hospital." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 People who confuse telepathic and psychic effects need a good slap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo_maya Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo_maya Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 :worship: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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