Kurt Cobain was murdered

[bascule]

If there's anything remotely resembling a conspiracy theory which I, as a devout skeptic, believe, this is the one.

 

Why would I believe that a rock star with persistent depression, mental instability, and a heroin problem was murdered when he is officially recognized to have committed suicide?

 

The answer comes from my interpretation of the available evidence. Unfortunately, much of the interpretation requires an extensive medical background to be done properly, and that is something I sorely lack.

 

So, I'm afraid I'm going to take the crazy conspiracy theorist approach here and throw up a bunch of questions. But rather than simply throwing the questions out there and ignoring the responses, I would really like to know the answers, will take them into consideration, and they may change my view and cause me to reject the "conspiracy theory"

 

So, here's the first bit of evidence I'd like to evaluate:

 

- Kurt's blood morphine level was 1.52 mg/L

 

First, the skeptics questions:

 

Is this figure reliable? Does it come from the coroner's report? I don't really know. Is this an extrapolated value, or the blood morphine level of his cadaver which was found days after he was shot? Sadly, I don't have answers to these questions. This figure is mainly circulated among advocates of the conspiracy and should therefore be regarded with dubious credibility at best.

 

Next:

 

- Kurt's body weight at death was in the realm of 115-130 pounds

 

Again, I have no good source for this figure, save for advocates of the conspiracy theory.

 

Both of these figures can be found in the Cobain conspiracy theory advocate Roger Lewis's paper "Dead Men Don't Pull Triggers", the assertion being that the stated blood morphine level represents a lethal overdose, even for a hard addict like Cobain, and furthermore it represents an overdose so severe that it would've immediately incapacitated him after it was administered.

 

So, the conspiracy theorist's questions to the medically trained skeptic are:

 

- Given Kurt Cobain's body weight and blood morphine level, how much heroin would he need to administer to have reached this condition?

 

- After self-administering so much heroin, would he lose consciousness? If so, for how long would he remain conscious, and what functional capacity would he have during that time?

 

The claimed responses to these questions by conspiracy theory advocates are:

 

- Kurt would've had to administer a dose of approximately 225 mg - 240 mg of heroin. 75 mg - 80 mg of heroin is the established maximum lethal dose, even for severe addicts.

 

- An overdose so severe would incapacitate the individual almost immediately. During the time before they lose consciousness they would have neither the time nor functional capacity to wield a firearm, let alone put away their heroin, roll down their sleeves, lie down on the floor and position the gun on their chest, then fire.

[Illuminati]

Ya know Bascule, I admire your opinion on almost everything, you certainly have a great insight into most any realm. Most of the things you post really peak my interest, however, this really isn't one of them.

 

Although you have yourself a valid arguement, I just can't get interested in it. Perhaps it's because of my severe disgust for the fact that he became famous after he died, and my hatered for most celebrities, dead or alive.

 

I don't know, I really have nothing interesting to add. Heh, suppose I just wasted a post.

 

However, it is interesting from a conspiracy theorists point of view. But beyond that, not much.

 

Sorry to be the downer in the flock.

[silkworm]

Perhaps it's because of my severe disgust for the fact that he became famous after he died, and my hatered for most celebrities, dead or alive.

 

Kurt Friggin Cobain!!!!!!!!!!!! Kurt Cobain!!!!! Hello!

 

You're thinking of James Dean.

 

Anyway, bascule, Kurt Cobain is very much alive. I saw him in an Applebee's in Kansas about 8 years ago. When he saw me his eyes got big because I was wearing cargo pants and I think he was worried I'd freak out and give him away, but I gave him a look that let him know he's safe.

 

He's fine. I don't know who the body is.

[aj47]

Perhaps it's because of my severe disgust for the fact that he became famous after he died.

.

 

Kurt was incredibly famous before he died, in the early 90's practically every teenager owned a Nirvana CD, he was like a God to some people.

[Anjruu]

My question is, "Is shooting a man who has overdoesed and will be dead in probably several minutes murder? Is killing a dead man murder?" I would argue not. With that much heroin in the bloodstream, not much could save him. So he was dead, just he happened to be breathing. There is no law against shooting a corpse.

[Phi for All]

Am I remembering right that there were no fingerprints on the gun? And wasn't the room cleaned like someone had wiped it down?

There is no law against shooting a corpse.

Abusing a corpse in any way that might offend family sensibilities IS against the law. It's not murder, but it is covered under public indecency statutes.

[bascule]

Am I remembering right that there were no fingerprints on the gun?

 

Yes, no fingerprints were recovered off the gun.

[Illuminati]

Kurt Friggin Cobain!!!!!!!!!!!! Kurt Cobain!!!!! Hello!

 

You're thinking of James Dean.

 

Anyway' date=' bascule, Kurt Cobain is very much alive. I saw him in an Applebee's in Kansas about 8 years ago. When he saw me his eyes got big because I was wearing cargo pants and I think he was worried I'd freak out and give him away, but I gave him a look that let him know he's safe.

 

He's fine. I don't know who the body is.[/quote']

 

 

Haha, I'm well aware of who kurt cobain is, lead singer of nirvana. Believe me, I know. This isn't a repete of that "Blue Folder" thread.

[starbug1]

are we pointing fingers as to who we think it was? Or are we only saying that he was most probably killed by someone else?

[bascule]

are we pointing fingers as to who we think it was?

 

I'll point fingers if you want: Courtney

 

I'll also say that Allen Wrench did not kill Kurt Cobain, he just wants people to think he did...

[Phi for All]

are we pointing fingers as to who we think it was? Or are we only saying that he was most probably killed by someone else?

Personally, I think it would be more credible to try to establish a case for murder as opposed to the suicide it was concluded to be. Pointing fingers assumes it was murder and I don't think you want to leap that far ahead.

[ecoli]

what was courtney's motive though?

[starbug1]

Personally, I think it would be more credible to try to establish a case for murder as opposed to the suicide it was concluded to be. Pointing fingers assumes it was murder and I don't think you want to leap that far ahead.

 

that's the whole point of this thread. It's absolutely pertinent to bring in possible suspects to find out why he was murdered. Motive is one of the questions asked during the suicide/homocide case.

 

I'll point fingers if you want: Courtney

 

I am neutral. You can find Courtney Love's eulogy reading here. This is one of things which steered me toward the whole "Courtney killed Court" uproar. She sounds so phony during the whole time, and if you can download the audio, it is better. The sobs are interplaced almost cinematically.

 

In addition to the drug data and body weight data bascule expounded on, there is quite a bit of evidence because of his situation just before his death.

 

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/kurt/kcmissing1.html

 

 

 

 

 

Cobain had already attempted suicide several times by ODing. He could have just as well killed himself after he escaped from the hospital. Why would a suicidal man take a plane back to Seattle and by a shotgun along the way just to committ suicide without making any prior contacts upon arrival? As far as I know Cobain had no attachment to his house, where he must see it before he died. Also, he said in his journals or somewhere that he went home to get away, and it did not at all sound like he would leave for home to kill himself. However, there is a big gap missing where many questions are left unanswered.

 

 

The fact that there were no finger prints on the gun, and that Cobain was too weak and drugged to pull it himself, and the gunwound in the wrong position to be pulled with his toe. However, the reports show a lot of evidence saying it was a suicide.

 

For instance, this police report makes reference on the last page to Cobain convalescence in Rome and the current tension in Love' s and Cobain's relationship. Relationship tension with love and cobain is hardly a matter. Furthermore, everything in the report is descriptive of suicide.

 

The rest of the reports are here http://www.thesmokinggun.com/kurt/kurt.html

 

 

The only thing that baffles me is him purchasing a shotgun.

 

Does anyone know what Dave Grohl and Krist Novoselic had to say about everything?

[bascule]

what was courtney's motive though?

 

The conspiracy alleges: Kurt was about to divorce her and thus cut her out of the Nirvana money.

 

Also, she's just a psycho bitch. See the movie Kurt & Courtney

[Phi for All]

that's the whole point of this thread. It's absolutely pertinent to bring in possible suspects to find out why he was murdered. Motive is one of the questions asked during the suicide/homocide case.

Is that the whole point? Sorry, then I'm not interested. I thought that setting out all the evidence that suggests it was murder should come first. If you automatically assume it was murder and jump right to accusing suspects then I'll never be convinced you didn't lead yourself to a conclusion based on your own presuppositions.

 

I was semi-interested in taking a case apart scientifically but this approach insures it'll be just another conspiracy theory.

[bascule]

I was semi-interested in taking a case apart scientifically but this approach insures it'll be just another conspiracy theory.

 

I was hoping for an evidence-based argument as well...

[starbug1]

Is that the whole point? Sorry' date=' then I'm not interested. I thought that setting out all the evidence that suggests it was murder should come first. If you automatically assume it was murder and jump right to accusing suspects then I'll never be convinced you didn't lead yourself to a conclusion based on your own presuppositions.

 

I was semi-interested in taking a case apart scientifically but this approach insures it'll be just another conspiracy theory.[/quote']

 

I never said it was murder. Working backward saying it was either murder or suicide is a way to gather evidence, as you can apply motives to the situation. I'm not taking sides on this either way. I put in my last post the links to the official police reports. Also, I put in the eulogy. With that and Bascule's info, what more evidence is there that doesn't go off opinion?

[Phi for All]

I never said it was murder.

It's absolutely pertinent to bring in possible suspects to find out why he was murdered.

I find a discrepancy in your testimony.

 

Btw, where were you on the night of April 8th, 1994?

 

I just think it would be a more credible approach to pick apart the evidence that suggests it was suicide and see if there is stronger evidence that it was murder. Looking for motive assumes it ws murder and insures you will either dismiss any suicide evidence or try to link it to the homicide thesis.

 

 

 

The name of the person filing the missing person report is blanked out. Does anyone know who filed it? One report said it was "the family" but was it his wife or his mother?

 

I read something about a call allegedly made by Cobain's mother to the Seattle police warning them that Cobain had fled a CA rehab center, was suicidal and had bought a shotgun. Was it ever confirmed that his mother made that call? It seems like a lot of info for a person about to commit suicide to confide to his mother.

[bascule]

I just think it would be a more credible approach to pick apart the evidence that suggests it was suicide and see if there is stronger evidence that it was murder.

 

The only real evidence for suicide, as far as I can gather:

- Circumstantial attributes (Persistent depression and overall instability)

- A previous "suicide attempt" and an escape from where he was being treated

- Suicide note

 

One of the main reasons I doubt the suicide explanation is that Kurt's behavior before his death seems far more consistent with a person fearing for his life than one who was suicidal.

 

For example, his body was found by a man he had hired to install security lighting. The question becomes: why would Kurt order security lighting for his home, then commit suicide?

 

On March 18th, 1994, Courtney called the SPD and told them that Kurt was suicidal and had locked himself in a room with a gun. When the SPD visited, Kurt told them he was not suicidal and had locked himself in a room to hide from Courtney:

 

[bascule]

The name of the person filing the missing person report is blanked out. Does anyone know who filed it? One report said it was "the family" but was it his wife or his mother?

 

Courtney filed the missing person's report under Kurt's mother's name, without her permission.

[Phi for All]

For example, his body was found by a man he had hired to install security lighting. The question becomes: why would Kurt order security lighting for his home, then commit suicide?

I found this at a site which was at least asking if it was murder rather than claiming it was murder (1)

On April 6, Courtney called an electrical contractor to request work on the lights and motion detector installed on the greenhouse where Kurt's body was found. Early the next morning, Love/Cobain attorney Rosemary Carroll reportedly overheard Courtney telling Dylan Carlson to "be sure to check the greenhouse." On April 8, Kurt's corpse was spotted by one of the electricians Courtney had summoned, who immediately alerted the police."

If Courtney called them instead of Kurt it removes the question of security vs. suicide.

 

Suicide's biggest piece of evidence, the shotgun and it's position, are called into question by three things: 1) it had been wiped clean, 2) it had been loaded with three rounds, and 3) a heroin addict most likely wouldn't want to go that way (admittedly conjecture).

 

The second biggest piece of evidence for suicide is the "suicide note". Some say it didn't sound like a suicide note. I think it easily could have been. (2)

[bascule]

I think the real question is if you've done 3X a lethal dose of heroin, why would you bother with the shotgun, rather than waiting to pass out and die?

[starbug1]

The only real evidence for suicide' date=' as far as I can gather:

- Circumstantial attributes (Persistent depression and overall instability)

- A previous "suicide attempt" and an escape from where he was being treated

- Suicide note[/quote']

 

Am I wrong, or didn't Kurt make several suicide attempts in his lifetime? I'm pretty sure it was at least 6 or 7, the first when he was in high school.

 

I think the real question is if you've done 3X a lethal dose of heroin, why would you bother with the shotgun, rather than waiting to pass out and die?

 

I had always thought he bought the gun in order to kill someone else, out of rage, delusion, or protection, it doesn't matter, it matches up it he hired a guy to install security lights. However, do we know why exactly he went back to his house?

[ecoli]

Am I wrong, or didn't Kurt make several suicide attempts in his lifetime? I'm pretty sure it was at least 6 or 7, the first when he was in high school.

 

oh yeah... someone in his school hung himself in from the building and he was thinking about doing the same, but I don't think he actually attempted it. As for the other suicide attempts, it depends if you think he was trying to OD or if he just overestimated the amount of drugs he needed to get a high... either way, I think 7 is too high.

 

I suppose that past suicide attmpets doesn't prove that his death was a suicide, but it certainly shows that he wasn't against such an option.

[bascule]

Can someone quote specific incidences here regarding Kurt's previous "suicide" attempts? There are two documented (and debunked) here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Cobain

 

Following a tour stop at Terminal Eins in Munich, Germany, on March 1st, 1994, Cobain was diagnosed with bronchitis and severe laryngitis. He flew to Rome the next day for medical treatment, and was joined there by his wife on March 3rd.

 

The next morning, Love awoke to find that Cobain had overdosed on a combination of champagne and Rohypnol. (Love had a prescription for Rohypnol filled after arriving in Rome.) Cobain was immediately rushed to the hospital, and spent the rest of the day unconscious. After five days in the hospital, Cobain was released and returned to Seattle. [7] Love later insisted publicly that the incident was Cobain's first suicide attempt.

 

[...]

 

After Cobain's death, Love insisted that Cobain's overdose in Rome was a suicide attempt. However, several people have contested the assertion. The doctor who treated Cobain, Dr. Osvaldo Galletta, told Newsday, "After [Cobain] woke up, he told me it was an accident. He said he had been confused. He had taken pharmaceuticals and alcohol together. He said it was just a mistake." [12] He further explained to Halperin and Wallace, "We can usually tell a suicide attempt. This didn't look like one to me." Galletta specifically denied Love's claim that fifty Rohypnol pills were removed from Cobain's stomach. [13]

 

On March 18th, Courtney phoned police to inform them that Cobain was suicidal and had locked himself in a room with a gun. Police arrived and confiscated several guns and a bottle of pills off of Cobain, who insisted that he was not suicidal and had locked himself in the room to hide from Love. When questioned by police, Love admitted that Cobain had never mentioned that he was suicidal and that she had not seen him with a gun. [8]