Would you buy a hybrid car?

[insane_alien]

I agree. We just need to wait for production of ethanol to increase greatly and for the distribution of ethanol fueling stations and ethanol capable automobiles to increase.

 

I just finished a project on the production of ethanol from various biomasses.

the most effective way to go just now appears to be smaller units on farms than bigger factories. ideally you could have domestic units to extract fuel from grass cuttings and the like but gardens are neither common enough or large enough(on average) to produce the required volume of ethanol.

[AL]

You sure said it insane alien!

If we took all of Australia's wheat (including what we export — we grow enough for 55 million people)' date=' and turned it into ethanol, we'd produce 6% of our fuel and have no bread, wheet bix, pasta, etc. We cannot grow our way out of the coming oil crisis because there just isn't enough arable land. It very quickly comes down to a choice between food or fuel. Very quickly.[/quote']

Well of course arable land usage is a major, if not insurmountable, obstacle to a purely ethanol energy economy. Perhaps I should've qualified my suggestion a little more, but I meant to say that I think flex-fuel vehicles are a better transition vehicle type on our path to reducing oil usage than hybrids, for a number of reasons. I did not mean to suggest that they are a permanent long-term solution to any future oil shortage.

[Steph]

You sure said it insane alien!

If we took all of Australia's wheat (including what we export — we grow enough for 55 million people)' date=' and turned it into ethanol, we'd produce 6% of our fuel and have no bread, wheet bix, pasta, etc. We cannot grow our way out of the coming oil crisis because there just isn't enough arable land. It very quickly comes down to a choice between food or fuel. Very quickly.[/quote']

 

Brazil is doing it. in 4 years, all of their cars will be ethanol powered (most are either ethanol or ethanol/gas hybrids already)

[Severian]

Hmmm.... something tells me that 'Peak Oil Man' may have a vested interest in this topic...

[Steph]

Wikipedia says...

 

 

 

6.3 barrels = 1 cubic metre

free download at http://www.unitconverterpro.com

 

so 27' date='000 m³/day = 170,100 b/d

Which is about 1/5 what Australia CONSUMES in oil per day.

Australia uses 881 thousand barrels a day last time I looked.

 

America burns 20 MILLION barrels a day, and the world burns about 85 million barrels a day. Brazil grows a mere 170 thousand barrels a day... quite an achievement, but it's no silver bullet.

 

And none of those pesky fertilizer questions have been answered. Fun subject hey?[/quote']

 

Got your message... I stand corrected then. thing is we ARE going towards a massive energy crisis... and electric cars are not the answer since electricity is mostly made with gas or similar products.

[Severian]

Let me put it this way. If we had spent as much money developing nuclear power as we have spent developing oil, we would all be driving nuclear powered cars by now.

[NeonBlack]

Let me put it this way. If we had spent as much money developing nuclear power as we have spent developing oil, we would all be driving nuclear powered cars by now.

 

Word.

 

It's not that hybrid cars can't go 100+ mph, it's just that most of them don't, for the sake of efficiency.

There are a few high-performance hybrids out there.

 

I'm suprised that there was no option "I already own one" and that nobody here already owns one.

[insane_alien]

speed limit is 70 mph here so i don't see the point in having something that can go faster(well unless your going to be using the autobahn. )

[bascule]

I voted "no" because I'm not full of SMUG!

 

That and I hope to make a bicycle my primary means of transportation very soon.

[Norman Albers]

What's battery life and replacement karma?

[Norman Albers]

Thankyou, I have carried on this discussion with my M.D. classmate in Colorado (we're about 57 yrs.old). He just kept saying we have to invest in the new productive ideas, which is half the need, but I kept saying we will always outpace ourselves and must always meditate on our use. There is no free lunch, yet. TURN OFF THE LIGHT WHEN YOU LEAVE THE ROOM. HANG UP YOUR CLOTHES TO DRY WHEN YOU CAN.

[Norman Albers]

Mom never had a clothes dryer other than good strung cords. Outside we had the square spin-around trellis type (New York, USA), and winters were dry in the basement for hanging. Three kids and all those socks? I don't claim to be equal to this but I am blessedly child-free. Take out towels and jeans (heavy cottons) and that's maybe half the entire drying weight. When temperatures are below maybe 7 degrees C outside, the heated home is getting fairly dry humidity-wise. Drying takes roughly twice the energy of washing, and I read that Japanese usually hang clothes out even in humid cities. Lint traps=clothes fibres.

[Norman Albers]

With every dollar we spend, yup.

[KLB]

Until the hybrids can match the range and performance of the internal combustion engine' date=' I am sticking with my hemi.

 

I voted "other" because driving for me is a real pleasure and I love my car and truck. I will certainly get a hybrid once they meet my requirements.[/quote'] Contrary to what you believe, hybrids have better range and performance than their comparable non-hybrid counterparts. Hybrids have as much as 100 - 200 miles more range than their non-hybrid counterparts. Hybrids typically have more low end torque than comparable non-hybrid cars because electric motors have no torque curve unlike gasoline engines. The Prius actually has more low end torque than full size pickups.

 

Here are some comparisons between the Prius, Accord Hybrid and Dodge Charger V6:

 

Torque:

Dodge Charger V6: 250 ft-lbs. @ 3800 rpm

Accord Hybrid V6:

Gas engine: 232 ft-lbs. @ 5000 rpm

Electric Motor: 100 ft-lbs. @ 840 rpm

Total: 242 ft-lbs

Prius 4-cyl:

Gas engine: 82 ft-lbs. @ 4200 rpm

Electric Motor: 295 ft-lbs. @ 0 rpm

Total: 377 ft-lbs

 

Horse Power:

Charger V6: 250 hp @ 6400 rpm

Accord Hybrid V6:

Gas engine: 253 hp @ 6000 rpm

Electric Motor: 16 hp @ 840 rpm

Total: 269 hp

Prius 4-cyl:

Gas engine: 110 hp @ 5000 rpm

Electric Motor: 67 hp @ 1200 rpm

Total 177 hp

 

Fuel economy HWY:

Charger V6: 27 mpg

Accord Hybrid V6: 34 mpg

Prius 4-cyl: 51 mpg

 

Range HWY:

Charger V6: 486 mi.

Accord Hybrid V6: 581 mi.

Prius 4-cyl: 607 mi

 

Fuel Tank:

Charger V6: 18 gal

Accord Hybrid V6: 17.1

Prius 4-cyl: 11.9

 

Even though the Prius has only a 4-cyl engine, it does hold its own in the performance department and actually blows the Dodge Charger away when it comes to torque. In many respects the Accord Hybrid also out performs the Dodge Charger. I don't list the acceleration from 0-60 because the Edmunds comparison did not list the acceleration for either the Dodge Charger V6 nor the Honda Accord Hybrid.

 

Source: http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessionid=G0pGh1xHnfcf02yXJ1rrjXq76JC6qJGKTJL7Rn45gBBM0wyHHpZW!574152227?styleid=100518592&styleid=100668257&styleid=100668136&maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=specs

[sabbath]

I'd much rather walk.

 

What I really think is a futuristic world is when walking becomes a convenience....and teleportation stations are as common as bus stops are now today.

 

bus stops in the future: nonexistent, and so are cars.

[padren]

Yes, if I could, I would buy a hybrid car, though, I should also say for completeness sake, that I would rather, if I could, buy a Gulf Stream jet.

 

I plan to get one of their $50m models as soon as I can manage to gather up $100m or so, but to be realistic it may take a couple years.

[Norman Albers]

What I need almost bad enough to build it, is an electric garden cart/wheelbarrow for fairly rugged country performance but only a kilometer of range for a 100 kg load (of firewood, say).

[Prime-Evil]

Even the hybrids are overpowered fluff.

[mmalluck]

Torque:

Dodge Charger V6: 250 ft-lbs. @ 3800 rpm

Accord Hybrid V6:

Gas engine: 232 ft-lbs. @ 5000 rpm

Electric Motor: 100 ft-lbs. @ 840 rpm

Total: 242 ft-lbs

Prius 4-cyl:

Gas engine: 82 ft-lbs. @ 4200 rpm

Electric Motor: 295 ft-lbs. @ 0 rpm

Total: 377 ft-lbs

 

Horse Power:

Charger V6: 250 hp @ 6400 rpm

Accord Hybrid V6:

Gas engine: 253 hp @ 6000 rpm

Electric Motor: 16 hp @ 840 rpm

Total: 269 hp

Prius 4-cyl:

Gas engine: 110 hp @ 5000 rpm

Electric Motor: 67 hp @ 1200 rpm

Total 177 hp

 

....

 

Hold up. You can't just add the torque max of both the gas and electric componets or horsepower max of both the gas and electric componets that are running at different RPMs and call that the total horsepower or total torque.

 

You need to look at a composite graph of the entire system and make those statments.

 

Pulling from here

http://www.theautochannel.com/newcardb/trim.html?trimid=18603&show=all

or here

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/toyota/prius/100668257/specs.html

 

The 2006 Prius has a MAX horsepower rating of 110hp @ 5000 RPM and a MAX torque rating of 82 ft lbs @ 4200 RPM. The electric and gas componets have to operate at the SAME rpm. Well unless you had two seperate transmissions, which you don't.

 

The accord hybrid nets a max of 253hp @ 6000 RPM and a max torque of 232 ft lbs @ 5000 rpm.

 

The Prius is vastly underpowered.

[mmalluck]

I voted other.

 

I thought about getting a hybrid. I really did. Then I started to ponder the technology; batteries, electric motors, gas engines, etc. etc. It's all great in theory, but what about the cost (environmental and fiscal) of replacement parts (batteries) and the reliability of a more complex fledgling technology packed car?

 

I really wanted an environmentally friendly car that'll last me the next 10-15 years, uses a proven technology, and is fun to drive.

 

I went with the Volkswagen Jetta TDI (turbo diesel injection). It gets 41 mpg highway / 36 city and only gets better once the engine breaks in. Hybrid's often dissapoint folks as the reported mpg is very hard to achieve. I got 41 mpg on my 600 mile trip back from the dealership (averaging 70mph) with my TDI. Some folks have gotten better than 50 mpg with these cars. As far as thermal efficiency goes these engines push 40%.

 

These cars are far removed from the soot belching diesels of the 1980's. They get lower CO2 emissions than a similarly rated gas engine and run much cleaner. The introduction of ULSD will only improve emissions.

 

The technology is much simpler than a hybrid system. No electric motors. No spark plugs. No battery packs. The technology has been proven and used for the past 17 years over in Europe but never really found it's way over here (USA). I think we'll see more in the next few years.

 

The car is fun to drive. 177 foot pounds of torque at 2200 RPM will put a smile on your face and gives you plenty of power to pass. Mind you, you aren’t going to win any more drag races than you would with a hybrid, but still it's fun. Mods can easily lead to even more power from this compact engine (250+ foot pounds of torque).

 

Sure, diesel may be more expensive than regular unleaded gas, but during the summer (when most driving is to be had) the price of diesel approaches or beats regular gas, like it is right now in the sunny state of Georgia. I also like the fact that this vehicle can be directly run off renewable substitute (bio-diesel) if necessary. You won't have that with these hybrids.

 

Just some food for thought as people rush to buy into the hybrid-hype.

[hybrid04]

I drive a hybrid and i love it It has an awesome charge assist gauge that entertains me for hours. It just moves back and fourth....green blue green blue! On a side note it is an excellent car. Granted the getup isnt the most amazing but i didnt get the car to replace something. I got it for the fuel effiency and the money it would save. At current i get about 400 miles to the tank on my 12 gallon tank. Come to think of it thats an understatement considering im to paranoid to let the gauge go that low to even get close to less than 2 gallons. Depending on whether im driving on the expressway, side roads, or stop and go it can drastically effect the mileage. About the last one the hybrid hype. Ive had mine for 2 years. I couldnt be more happy with it. The only downside is the special 0w-20 oil it uses which is expensive to get an oil change at your generic drive up so i have to go to the dealership but they wash my car for free so its all good

[KLB]

I thought about getting a hybrid. I really did. Then I started to ponder the technology; batteries' date=' electric motors, gas engines, etc. etc. It's all great in theory, but what about the cost (environmental and fiscal) of replacement parts (batteries) and the reliability of a more complex fledgling technology packed car?

 

I really wanted an environmentally friendly car that'll last me the next 10-15 years, uses a proven technology, and is fun to drive.[/quote']

 

Same here, except I didn't care too much about the fun to drive part. For a while I really wanted a hybrid, but I just couldn't see the environmental savings let alone the economic savings. Two weeks ago I ended up buying a Hyundai Elantra GLS. It was rated for 29/32mpg, but on our first highway trip yesterday I got 37.31 mpg and the car still only has 800 miles on it so it is still breaking in. This isn't too bad for a car with a 2.0L engine. The way I look at it is that I plan on keeping this car for 200,000 - 250,000 miles (~10 years+/-). Just looking at the straight up cost between the Elantra and the Prius or Civic Hybrid, the hybrids would have cost me twice as much and maybe improved my fuel economy by 10 mpg. On top of this I would have to be replacing battery packs somewhere around 80,000 miles. So by the end of the vehicle's useful life, I very well would have spent $15,000 - $20,000 on a hybrid and had little to no positive impact on the environment due to used batteries etc.

 

My hope is to further improve fuel economy of my Elantra as it breaks in and by replacing its air filter with a K&N air filter as well as using synthetic lubricants in the engine and tranny to reduce parasitic friction. With some good fortune, I hope to push the car to 40 mpg on the highway.

 

Driving a car that burns dead dinosaurs isn't the greatest option in the world, but given the options currently available, the Elantra is what seemed to make the most sense for me and it appears that I will be getting much better fuel economy than was projected by the EPA. What I really want to see is more alternatives that get us away from burning hydrocarbons.

[Norman Albers]

Interesting observation about the oil viscosity! Clearly we are servicing a low-stress engine, and I read last year that oil additives had been created to do a stress-linking response that only kicks in at around 15 gigaPascals. In these small engines, there was not enough stress and they have had to lower this threshold.

[KLB]

Interesting observation about the oil viscosity!

I've spent a great deal of time over the past couple of weeks trying to find ways to maximize the fuel efficiency of our new car and add longevity to its functional life. Its really interesting that synthetic lubricants can not only reduce wear on the engine, transmission and differential (for rear wheel drive vehicles), but can also improve fuel economy by reducing parasitic friction. When looking at the economics of synthetic lubricants, one should also consider reduced long term maintenance costs associated with reduced parts wear and greater time between oil changes. If you are like me and keep vehicles for the majority of their usable service life long term maintenance costs really matter. From an environmental point of view the longer the service life of parts and vehicle, the fewer natural resources that are consumed replacing parts and the vehicle.

 

Some interesting articles on this topic are:

http://www.et.anl.gov/sections/tribology/highlights/parasitic_engine_losses.html

http://www.advanceautoparts.com/english/youcan/html/ccr/ccr20030101gm.html

http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/gaugingfueleconomyimprovements.htm (it is a little self promotional, but still informative)

[cyberquiet]

Hi, this is my first post on this forum.

I voted "other". I think public transportation and bicycle are the only viable solution if we want to prevent a host of problems in the future.

But until the "smart growth" philosophy will be adoped, hybrids should not be understimated as a way to reduce oil consumption.

Amory Lovins even claims hybrids may be made much more efficient by using better materials and aerodynamics.