Jobs Americans Won't Do?

[Edward Duffy]

Jobs Americans Wont Do?

 

There is a popular myth in this country that illegal immigrants are needed to do jobs that “Americans will not do”. The fact is that illegal immigrants do jobs that Americans wont do for $6/hour or less. Certain employers have come to expect dirt-cheap labor and when they can’t find it domestically, they’ll import it illegally. Many Middle Eastern companies make use of imported labor. A skilled carpenter in the United Arab Emirates makes all of $7.60/day. Perhaps if we follow this model carpentry will become a job that “Americans wont do”.

Some argue that cheap labor is necessary in order for American firms to stay competitive in the global marketplace. If we need to keep people in slave-like conditions to be competitive maybe that’s an industry we don’t need to compete in. If industries like agriculture are vital to our security and require that prices be kept below a certain level, maybe workers pay needs to be subsidized by the Defense Department.

People have been fleeing the economy of Mexico for almost as long as there has been a Mexico. They have been neighbor to the most prosperous economy the world has ever seen for two centuries and yet have not established a stable prosperous economy themselves. This is not a run of bad luck. It’s a systemic problem. As long as they can export their problems to us their politicians have little incentive to change the status quo and as long as the US continues to take advantage of desperate economic refugees our politicians have little incentive to pressure them to change.

The “guest worker” program is supposed to be a compassionate solution to illegal immigration. In order to employ guest workers American firms must first show that they attempted to hire Americans but could not find enough willing to do the job. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that all you have to do to fulfill this requirement is to make the starting pay so low no American will take it. Construction firms will likely be among the first beneficiaries. We will soon have masons, carpenters and other skilled workers earning $5.15/hour. More and more vocations will be added to the list of jobs “Americans won’t do”. Where will workers making $800/month before taxes find housing they can afford? They will either live in sub-standard housing or in large groups. America will have established itself a permanent peasant class. If Mexico and other Latin American countries ever do establish prosperous economies and the flow of cheap labor slows down we can always go overseas and get boatloads of poor and destitute people willing to work for almost nothing. We could enter into treaties with economically depressed countries to supply us with all the labor we need and supply them with “economic aid” in return. Of course this will necessitate that the leaders of economically depressed countries take steps to ensure that they stay economically depressed, but that shouldn’t be a problem. Why does all this sound familiar?

[Sisyphus]

What do you have in mind as a solution?

[Edward Duffy]

Enforcing current immigration laws and allowing market forces to work with the pool of American and legal immigrant workers. If other countries economies are in shambles they should make changes. It's not up to the US to provide everyone on the planet a job.

[Pangloss]

Well it's not up to the US to provide everyone in the US with a job either. But I guess that's another discussion.

 

I don't equate the term "enforcing current immigration laws" with the issue of low-wage labor. I equate that term with the issue of security. And on that issue, I don't see how there can be any disagreement that (a) our border is too open, or (b) that it should be secured.

 

Returning to the topic at hand, I have no problem with a legal guest worker program in a country with virtually full employment. So long as we know who's coming and going, and they've provided with the kind of basic human/legal rights that any guest in our country is provided, and ensured of the same level of worker safety as any other worker (including workers compensation insurance for accidents), then, if an employer can still get such labor cheap, more power to 'em.

[Edward Duffy]

It's possible to argue the issue from a free trade point of view and make the case that anyone who is willing to obey our laws and put in an honest day's work should be welcome to work here.

There are many counties whose governments and economic systems ensure a never-ending supply of workers, skilled and unskilled who will gladly work for our minimum wage.

Do we want to add plumbers, electricians, carpenters and more vocations to the ranks of the working poor? Do we want to create more low income, sub-standard housing areas? Does taking in economic refugees do anything to improve the situation or encourage change in the countries they are fleeing?

[Pangloss]

Does taking in economic refugees do anything to improve the situation or encourage change in the countries they are fleeing?

 

The answer to the last question is an unequivocal and historically well-documented "yes". It's certainly no panacea, but successful immigration has historically had a tremendous impact on the "home countries". Often it's an indirect and perhaps even unintentional impact, but in other cases (such as the current case of "Cuban exile groups"), the impact can be not only real and direct, but can actually reshape an entire economy. Not to mention the political impact.

 

No, we don't want more sub-standard housing and quality of life in this country. I certainly agree with you there.

[gcol]

It is a funny old world. The Greeks and Romans built Empires on slavery. Some modern countries did the same. (no names, no pack drill, all in the past)!

 

No slaves now, mostly, but "low wage servants" fill the gap.

 

Problem: At first they are welcomed in with open arms to do the menial tasks, but the door, once opened, refuses to close again, and you get too many. Then to rub it in, some insist on becoming educated and pinching jobs they were not intended to have.

 

Moral: 1. Dont start something you cant finish.

 

2. The law of unintended consequences always applies.

 

3. History always repeats itself.

[Pangloss]

It's apt that you should mention Roman slavery in this discussion, gcol. To some extent, slavery was actually a form of immigration in ancient Rome. House slaves typically received regular payment, and traditionally had citizenship granted to them upon successful completion of their careers. Of course, woe be unto those who fell into the hands of bad or poor owners. It was definitely slavery, no mistake about that. But it was very different from the kind of slavery that was practiced in more modern times.

 

(Our picture of this, of course, is unclear. There are many documented indications that, for example, the life of a gladiator during the Republic was a bit of a "high life" -- good food and accomodations, women, etc. Makes sense -- they were a big investment. On the other hand, that same society (in that same time period) produced the Spartacus revolt. Go figure.)

 

Regarding your point about "history repeating itself", I'm reminded of another bit of Rome-related trivia. A former slave, and all of his or her descendents, were still beholden to the former master, in the form of the patron-client relationship, which is the ultimate source of the modern social structure known as the "mafia". Although the history books don't dwell on it, many historians believe that this dynamic is in fact what really "ran" Rome for the entire 11 centuries of its primary form of existence, and perhaps beyond.

 

We don't know exactly when that practice started, and of course it's never really ended.

[augment]

Remember one thing about the Greek and Roman Empires, they both fell. Here's a step that I've been thinking about to solve or immigration problem.

 

1. Either grant amnesty to all illegal aliens in the country now as long as they meet certain criterium as ability to speak and comprehend english, other aptitude tests, and they will never have full citizenship. They will not have the ability to recieve any kind of government funds, they will recieve no tax breaks, they will be required to pay into social security, but will not be able to recieve it when they are older. And then you "lock down" the border.

 

OR Round up as many illegal immigrants as you can and toss deport them and then lock down the borders.

 

2. If illegal immigrants come here and have a kid they're child is a naturalized citizen and we cannot send they're parents back because their child is a citizen. I know this is in our constitution and what not but we need to amend that. Their child should not become a citizen or children of theirs when they get older. I think some European countries do this.

 

3. Allow legal workers to come into the US to do jobs the Americans will absolutely not do. Proof should have to be submitted that a company made a valiant effort to search for American employees and offered a pay rate not 50 cents below the average of companies in that industry. Then and only then should legal workers be allowed to come into the US.

 

I could could write a lot more about this but I gotta go somewhere, but In conclusion I think this plan would still benefit legal workers and I think it is a fair tradeoff to living life in Mexico or whatever country their from.

[Pangloss]

I'll settle for dozen centuries of superpower status. What's forgotten about the Greek and Roman empires isn't that they fell, but that they lasted for so long.

 

Why do you want to prevent current illegals whom you've granted amnesty to from becoming citizens in the future?

[Skye]

Why not (other than the politics of it) put more emphasis on the businesses in enforcing illegal workers? Sort of like fining businesses that sell cigaettes or liquor to underage kids.

[Pangloss]

I'm afraid that angle has already been covered, and we're still coming up short. American businesses are already required by the Federal government to collect citizenship documentation on new hires. If they are unable to produce it, they cannot remain (legally) employed.

 

Enforcement has always been problematic, but I can tell you that my wife handles this task for a small manufacturing firm in a large Latino community here in South Florida, and they don't even consider skirting the law on this, because the penalty is so harsh and the business is so important -- the livlihood of everyone who works there would be at risk.

 

And virtually all companies look at it that way. So really "the problem" falls into two areas:

 

1) Cash-based businesses. (Like landscaping or house-cleaning.)

2) Fake documentation. (I.E. the illegals get their hands on fake green cards or passports/driver's licenses, and lie to employers.)

[ecoli]

Why not (other than the politics of it) put more emphasis on the businesses in enforcing illegal workers? Sort of like fining businesses that sell cigaettes or liquor to underage kids.

 

The biggest places to worry about are in the kitchens in restaurants and construction companies, which I believe empliys most of the illegal immgrants from Mexico.