Making Hydrochloric acid + Halogen Chemistry.

[jdurg]

tell me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that pH wasn't actually pH, but rather ro (greek symbol) H, and it is the negative log of the H+ concentration, oppositely there is pOH. . . it just seems as though the ro evolved into a p to most people/institutions.

You're wrong. the pH is actually a french term "poweur Hydronium"(sic?) which pretty much describes that it is a logarithimic measurement of the hydronium concentration. It is not greek at all.

[DougBrummell]

"The concept was introduced by S.P.L. Sørensen in 1909, and is purported to mean "pondus hydrogenii" in Dutch."

 

Then it goes on to say most people now associate it with yours.

 

Thanks for the catch on the ro, lying ass chemisty teacher.

[woelen]

Well, I'm Dutch, but the words "pondus hydrogenii" definitely are no Dutch words . It seems like Latin to me. The word "pondus" does not mean anything to me, the word "hydrogenii" means something like "of hydrogen".

 

EDIT: I have done a lookup and the word "pondus" means "pressure".

[DougBrummell]

ok well now YT, Wikipedia (from which my Dutch comment was drawn), my teacher, and yourself have all told me different things. . . so here is my conclusion. . . pH means what level of ouch an acid or a base is.

[bob000555]

If you try electrolysis of NaCl in the reguler electrolysis setup the HCl and NaOh will react before you can seperate them.

[YT2095]

actualy it was a Danish guy that worked for a Beer Brewery called Carlsberg in 1909, his name was Soren Sorensen.

there`s no mention of what the exact words were for PH though in his language, I`ve always taken it to be "Potential Hydrogen".

we need another Danish Chemist now to find out for sure (idealy a Beer drinker)

[[w00t]]

Whats the best way to produce Barium Chlorate instead? i know i can be done by a double decomp with sodium chlorate but then its basiclly impossible to seperate the 2

[YT2095]

electrolysis of Barium Chloride is how I made mine.

 

actualy this thread has gone through SO MANY changes, I`ll have to rename it now, it popular and it does more or less Flow as well as being pretty good in the main

[woelen]

Making barium chloride is easy. Dissolve excess barium carbonate in dilute hydrochloric acid, let the insoluble matter settle at the bottom and the clear liquid is the almost pure solution of barium chloride, ready for electrolysis. Barium carbonate is an OTC product, which can be purchased from ceramics suppliers.

Keep in mind that the barium carbonate usually contains a few percent of BaS and hence you also get the stink of H2S. Dissolve the solid outside and when all is dissolved, adding a few drops of 3% H2O2 before letting settle the solid destroys the remaining H2S.

[jdurg]

Elemental Barium is actually some pretty neat stuff too. I've spent the past few days moving some of my more air sensitive metals to some new jars I picked up which are smaller in size and have tighter fitting tops. (The smaller size allows less gas to dissolve in the mineral oil. The tight fitting tops, in conjunction with Teflon Tape and an electrical tape seal on the outside does a great job of keeping air out. The sodium I put into one a few months ago looks as fresh as when I cut it). Anyway, I expected barium to be fairly soft and somewhat dense, but it's neither! It's actually a pretty hard metal and felt kind of like aluminum. The oxide coating on the outside adheres very strongly to the metal so I wasn't able to remove it and see what pure barium looks like. I did try and scrape off some of the heavily oxidized sections and now have it sealed away in a much better jar. I need to go and pick up more of these jars, however.

[[w00t]]

@woelen, if using Barium Chloride instead of Sodium chloride, would the time taken to convert 100g of barium chloride be the same as converting 100grams of sodium chloride in the method you described couple of pages back

[woelen]

Yes, it will be approximately the same. It is, however, not true that every chloride has the same conversion times, it is sheer coincidence that the conversion times of BaCl2 and NaCl are so close.

[[w00t]]

hmm ok, how were you to purify it?, the barium chlorate and chloride basicly have the same solublity

[woelen]

I would go for a longer electrolysis, until at the anode mostly oxygen is produced. In that situation, there is only a relatively small amount of BaCl2 left, and most will be Ba(ClO3)2 (and you'll also have small amounts of perchlorate as well). Some chloride in your mix even is beneficial, because it enhances the green color of the barium ions. Btw, barium ions do not produce brilliant green, but more like a greyish green.

 

The disadvantage is that at the stage, where oxygen is produced, there will be more anode erosion, but if indeed barium chlorate and barium chloride have similar solubilities in water, then I'm afraid you have no other option.

 

YT, do you have any suggestions over here ?

[Kelsey]

You guys are talking about the Downs Cell for making Na and Cl2. The CaCl2 is used to lower the melting point of NaCl by about 25% (801 to 590 degrees Celsius), a considerable savings in energy. The Sodium is lighter than moltent NaCl so it floats on top and is collected that way. The chlorine ion, Cl-, is oxidized to Cl2 gas. The Chlorine goes off as a gas from the central anode, since anodes are always where oxidation takes place. The link below says that Ca metal is not produced due to Na metal forming at a less negative cathode potential than Ca metal. I have seen studies that indicate that Ca metal is produced but that it reacts with Na+ ions and is converted back into Ca+2.

 

See: http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Electrowinning/Sodium.htm

 

This is standard High School electrochemistry.

[[w00t]]

anyway, i was experimenting with some kclo3 i made, these ones seems very pure since it burns so much faster

 

http://media.putfile.com/ChlorateCharcoal

[woelen]

']anyway' date=' i was experimenting with some kclo3 i made, these ones seems very pure since it burns so much faster

 

http://media.putfile.com/ChlorateCharcoal[/quote']

Nice job, I think that this KClO3 is quite pure, except for its sodium contents. It burns pretty fast, but its flame still is somewhat orange. However, the orange color also can be caused by the charcoal. Try to repeat the experiment without charcoal, just sulphur. If the flame still is orange, then there is still some sodium ion present in your product.

 

But as far as oxidizing power is concerned, your stuff is good and definitely useful for making a nice BP-like powder. Keep in mind though, that KClO3-mixes always remain dangerous. You may become more and more comfortable, working with this stuff, but always keep in mind, that this stuff may bite (and may bite hard), unexpectedly!

[[w00t]]

i heard keeping chlorate at melting point for a while turns it to perchlorate. is this true?

 

also i bought a multimeter and i wanted to measure how much A(current) is going thro the electrodes, how would i do this? (im no good with multimeter)

[[w00t]]

i heard car batteries have Leadoxide electrode (good for chlorate making)...

 

i found a car battery, how would i harvest the electrode from it (probably including the sulfuric acid)

[YT2095]

you`re best to fully charge the battery first.

then empty out the now stronger conc acid, let that acid sit in a bottle for a week or so before decanting, most of the lead contaminants will have settled at the bottom in this time.

then wash the battery out several times with fresh water.

it`s entirely up to you how you open it after, heating it around the top and cutting it with a sharp knife or even a hacksaw blade.

your choice.

[RTOCONFUSED]

I made HCl, but don't know how - and that's why I signed up, found this discussion, and need HELP from you chem-xperts. I operate an RTO (regenerative thermal oxidizer) for destruction of volatile organic compounds (VOCs) from a food-grade process. The RTO opeates at 1600F to "burn" the VOCs. A recent emissions test from the RTO found HCl????? There is NO HCl or Cl in the process, with only ONE exception of common salt (NaCl). So, how am I getting HCl. I have seen where molten pure NaCl (melts at 1474F) when exposed to an anode/cathode emits Na and Cl2, and if H2O vapor is present, could form HCl. Its a stretch, but IF particulate salt in my process is depositing on the inside of the RTO and melting, and IF the interior metal walls provide anode/cathode sites (typical in alloy structure and where motor transient currents are present) where Cl2 is released to the airflow that also contains superheated saturated water vapor, and IF the Cl2 find the water vapor molecules in the high temperature environment, can I get HCl? Come on all you inorganic gurus out there, help me out (and I need reference to hard facts). Thanks bunches!

[YT2095]

it`s unlikely to be an electrode situation, it`s More likely that you are creating Other acids in the decomp that are displacing Na+ and replacing it with Hydrogen.

 

Phosphates and Sulphates can do this (both are in certain organic compounds).

the formation of SO2 from Thio compounds for instance can make sulphurous acid and sulphuric, this will easily react with NaCl to form Hydrochloric.

 

HCl isn`t a particularly Strong acid, and there are Plenty stronger that will prefer the sodium cation and liberate HCl.

 

that`s where I would be looking anyway.

[RTOCONFUSED]

OK, understand where you're thinking. Would these be temperature driven? I ask, because on this process, before installation of the RTO for control of VOCs, previous testing showed only de minimus HCl. With installation of the RTO, max temp exposure went from about 240F to 1600F and pop, HCl in the testing impinger.

[YT2095]

thermal decomp of Thio compounds will indeed liberate Sulpher based radicals, you mention the RTO, in particular the O bit of that is interestiong, as that will go a good way towards forming sulphur based Anionic compounds, these are very strong compared to the Chloride anion, and some cannot exist without combining with a suitable Cation, and so will easily double decomp with NaCl.

 

to apply occams Razor, you`ve made a strong acid probably Sulphuric, and that`s reacting with the NaCl to make your HCl.

[RTOCONFUSED]

mmm. OK, more info. The process is from food-grade baking - raw materials are flour, yeast, water, salt, vegetable oils/greases (fatty acids), vinager, and unknown especiation of other stuff as preservatives normal to commercial baking processes. I wonder. This is going deep. I need to understand how this is happening, and am NOT very there in these matters. I cannot find anything out there on this phenom.