If you had a time machine where would you go?

[Sisyphus]

But that's just substituting the phrase "personal will" for "human decision." Either there is a reason the "personal will" inclines in the direction it does, or there isn't. Determined, or random.

[Baby Astronaut]

But that's just substituting the phrase "personal will" for "human decision."

For me, personal will is the mental juggling that leads up to the final/actual decision made. They wouldn't be the same.

 

Either there is a reason the "personal will" inclines in the direction it does, or there isn't. Determined, or random.

Can you explain that more?

[Sisyphus]

Ok, what determines the course of that mental juggling (and hence the eventual outcome)? Is there some reason it goes the way it does, or is there not?

[JillSwift]

Ok, what determines the course of that mental juggling (and hence the eventual outcome)? Is there some reason it goes the way it does, or is there not?

Just to interject: the concepts of "mind" are also the last bastions of dualism.

 

That is to say, the "mental juggling" is the mind, not something a mind does. With that and the general predictability of most people's decision making processes, minds appear to be deterministic in nature.

 

I hope this makes sense, and helps a bit.

[Baby Astronaut]

Ok, what determines the course of that mental juggling (and hence the eventual outcome)? Is there some reason it goes the way it does, or is there not?

Well I can see the parts that entered into the juggling mix as totally (or even partially) deterministic, but the weighing of each part against the others and then arriving at a conclusion is what I think is free.

 

However, it wouldn't become final until a purposeful decision has been made and you started to act on it.

 

Yet a purposeful decision might be overridden by an involuntary body response, chemical or whatnot -- if strong enough.

[Sisyphus]

Just to interject: the concepts of "mind" are also the last bastions of dualism.

 

True enough, but it doesn't really matter. The deterministic/random dichotomy I'm talking about doesn't depend on any particular nature of mind. You could apply the same thing to a disembodied, supernatural being as to an emergent phenomenon of materialism.

 

That is to say, the "mental juggling" is the mind, not something a mind does. With that and the general predictability of most people's decision making processes, minds appear to be deterministic in nature.

 

I would agree that the current evidence points towards determinism, if only because the brain appears to be an entirely macroscopic and therefore classical system. It's also too complex to predict with close to 100% accuracy at all times (at least with any technique we have now), but that's neither here nor there.

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Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

Well I can see the parts that entered into the juggling mix as totally (or even partially) deterministic, but the weighing of each part against the others and then arriving at a conclusion is what I think is free.

 

Ok, so that weighing each part against the others and then arriving at a conclusion: is there a reason it happens the way it does, or is there not?

Edited September 11, 2009 by Sisyphus
Consecutive posts merged.

[JillSwift]

True enough, but it doesn't really matter. The deterministic/random dichotomy I'm talking about doesn't depend on any particular nature of mind. You could apply the same thing to a disembodied, supernatural being as to an emergent phenomenon of materialism.

 

I would agree that the current evidence points towards determinism, if only because the brain appears to be an entirely macroscopic and therefore classical system. It's also too complex to predict with close to 100% accuracy at all times (at least with any technique we have now), but that's neither here nor there.

Ah, k. I missed your point.

[Baby Astronaut]

Ok, so that weighing each part against the others and then arriving at a conclusion: is there a reason it happens the way it does, or is there not?

Do you mean an observable reason? How could I possibly know that if we haven't yet observed either a deterministic or free will source for purposeful actions?

 

My best guess is there's a physics mechanics reason for it, and which alters the course of events from whatever point in spacetime the human or sentient creature makes a decision.

[Sisyphus]

Do you mean an observable reason? How could I possibly know that if we haven't yet observed either a deterministic or free will source for purposeful actions?

 

You could admit that there either is a reason or there isn't. Whether that's practically observable doesn't matter.

 

You say "deterministic or free will." Are you using the term "free will" to just mean "not deterministic?" If so, you seem to just be equating free will with randomness.

 

My best guess is there's a physics mechanics reason for it, and which alters the course of events from whatever point in spacetime the human or sentient creature makes a decision.

 

So your guess is for determinism?

[Baby Astronaut]

You say "deterministic or free will." Are you using the term "free will" to just mean "not deterministic?" If so, you seem to just be equating free will with randomness.

Just to an observer, not to the person making the decision. We can use statistics and probablility to very closely approximate what a person is going to do, but not what a person is 100% going to do voluntarily. So I think it's relative between the decider and observer whether it's random or not.

 

 

So your guess is for determinism?

My guess again is that physics has its regular determinism going on, and in the universe are islands or pockets of energy (human/sentient minds) that can interrupt the regular determinism to create an unforeseen set of deterministic variables that had no previous record.

 

The new determinism spreads from the point in altered spacetime where the purposeful decision occurred.

[One of the Few]

If i had a safe aerial vantage point I would go to the marshall islands, specifically bikini, and witness the most powerfull explosion to ever occur on earth...or if i'm feeling especially adventurous i'd go into space and watch one of the most powerful explosions in the universe the massive nova that will be VY Canis Majoris!!

[insane_alien]

the largest man made explosion happened in russia. google 'tsar bomba' about twice as powerful as anything the US cranked out with the potential to be double what it was tested at.

[Gilded]

the largest man made explosion happened in russia. google 'tsar bomba' about twice as powerful as anything the US cranked out with the potential to be double what it was tested at.

 

In Soviet Russia, bomb tests you!

 

Also, I'd totally go see that.

[forufes]

I would go right back to the start, see how the universe started. What better thing is there?

 

 

what if you entered 9s in all slots and still found forms of life around?

 

i don't know where i'll go, maybe go back to jesus and ask him if he was god..

[CaptainPanic]

I'd go back to last weekend, and do it again.

 

No, it's not that I am not a very adventurous person... last weekend was just that good.

[One of the Few]

the largest man made explosion happened in russia. google 'tsar bomba' about twice as powerful as anything the US cranked out with the potential to be double what it was tested at.

My bad I talk so much about tsar bomba, and yet I still forget to center my post around it.