The opague BB phase

[sunspot]

I would like to add a couple of things that popped into my head stemming from the cosmic microwave background. When the BB expanded there was a period of time when the mass was opague to radiation. When hydrogen finally forms a transparency appears. I am fine with this.

 

Some additional considerations are connected to the outer surface of the expansion. When everything was small, yet expanding, the matter of the universe had a maximized surface area/volume ratio. Although I can see the volume being opague for the early expansion, shouldn't the outer surface area, but seeing empty space, have radiated energy into empty space. The amount would have decreased as the surface area/volume ratio lowered with time.

 

This consideration raises two additional points. If energy/heat was leaving the perimeter during the opague expansion, this implies that there should have also been an increasing thermal gradient from the surface to the center during the opague expansion. The implication is that hydrogen may have formed first at the cooler perimeter and worked its way to the center.

 

The other point is the transition between opague and transparent. It seems logical that individual hydrogen atoms do not form immediately at the perimeter. Rather there is a brief transition state where a giant pseudo-molecular hydrogen state forms which shares the electrons. In other words, protons and electrons form but things are much too close for individual hydrogen protons to have their own personal electron. It is one big composite of intermediate energy levels due to the electrons being at all the energy levels defined by protons because of the sharing. The perimeter, is the first to form the individual hydrogen atoms due to the lower thermal gradient with space.

[Martin]

... Although I can see the volume being opague for the early expansion, shouldn't the outer surface area, but seeing empty space, have radiated energy into empty space...

 

in conventional cosmology there is no "empty space" surrounding the matter

 

because matter and space are coextensive

 

in the usual view of mainstream cosmology the universe did not "expand into" some pre-existing empty space

 

mainstream cosmology uses the einstein equation of Gen Rel with the extra assumption that matter was distributed throughout space uniformly

and the equations describe SPACE ITSELF expanding

 

the model does not describe something like an explosion with matter going "bang" and flying out into the void, like some kind of bomb.

 

so there is no surrounding empty space in professional cosmologists picture

 

you have got a different picture which doesnt fit the mainstream model, so it is very difficult to respond to questions about it. if things were as you depict everything would I suppose be very different, we wouldnt be using the normal Gen Rel-based equations, but some different mathematical model, maybe a classical Newtonian model?

 

I dont think your model would have predicted the CMB. To me, in a Newtonian explosion model, the CMB does not make very good sense. the fact that the CMB was predicted before the fact, and then observed, has been one of the confirmations of the Gen Rel-based picture of mainstream cosmology.

[sunspot]

The observation that I see that supports my point of view is that space currently extends beyond the material universe. There is not a wall where matter and space both end. Even if matter and space expanded together at the very very beginning, like the current model suggests, space should have expanded at the speed of light with the matter a little slower. The energy leaving the perimeter of the opague BB travels at the speed of light allowing at least some of its substance to keep pace with space.

 

I do not visualize a big bomb expansion, but an entropy expansion. With space expanding at the speed of light it is creating an entropy potential for the slower matter expansion. This is creates a discontinuous expansion of the BB matter. The way to see this is as follows; If we divide the BB into two chunks a distance D and then have a secondary BB atomized into a continuum shell of diameter D, both will have the same Mass times Distance. However, the former will contain less entropy due to more order in the two chunks compared to the continuum.

 

Conversely, if the matter of the BB is trying to keep up with the expansion of space, like current theory suggests, the two chunks can go much further into space for the same amount of entropy potential. This is more consistent with matter keeping up with space as close as possible, even with space moving at C. The energy output from the matter perimeter(s) allows the BB to fully keep up with the light speed expansion of space.

 

I'm on a roll. If we combine the entropy expansion, the chunks, the heat output and the thermal gradient something really cool happens. An entropy expansion is endothermic. The heat output from the perimeter takes care of this endothermic need. But with space expanding faster than the matter and constantly gaining distance, for matter to keep up with the 3-D entropy potential, more and more chunks need to appear in 3-D so they can go in all directions. This will increase the surface area to maintain the heat balance and satisfy the ever increasing endothermic entropy.

 

A big part of what helps satisfy the increasing entropy potential, since the matter can't keep up, are the elementary particles subdividing into smaller and smaller quanta, within the smaller and smaller chunks. This particle subdivision also reflects the energy loss that is being absorbed into the entropy expansion through the increasing surface area. When the protons and electrons finally appear, the elementary particle subdivision sort of hits a wall. There are no half protons or half electrons. The extra entropy needed for the continued expansion of space results in mutitudes of chunk size expansions of hydrogen.

[aguy2]

in conventional cosmology there is no "empty space" surrounding the matter

 

because matter and space are coextensive

 

in the usual view of mainstream cosmology the universe did not "expand into" some pre-existing empty space

 

mainstream cosmology uses the einstein equation of Gen Rel with the extra assumption that matter was distributed throughout space uniformly

and the equations describe SPACE ITSELF expanding

 

the model does not describe something like an explosion with matter going "bang" and flying out into the void' date=' like some kind of bomb.

 

so there is no surrounding empty space in professional cosmologists picture

[/quote']

 

If one of the many oscillation/cycle models represents the actual case, how does the standard model handle the possibility that the current expansion might be expanding into 'real' space created by earlier oscillation/cycles?

aguy2

[sunspot]

I for one still like the BB theory, in essense. Its strength is connected to the standard model, which by far, has the most experimental data, and is not as fully dependant on just mathematics as many other scenarios. The problem with the BB is that it needs to keep up with the latest data. The inflation ammendment was good in its day. But last fall astral physics data showed ancient galaxies with stars less than a billion years into the expansion. It was more like several hundreds of millions of years. The only way to explain this is with an ammendment that includes a discontinuous initial expansion. I proposed a simple entropy consideration that makes this logical.

 

The overly complicated theoretical bandaids being used for the BB are making too many jump ship in favor of elaborate mathematical scenarios. I guess this is good for math, but none have the data backing of the BB.

[Severian]

The observation that I see that supports my point of view is that space currently extends beyond the material universe.

 

This is wrong. There is no such observation. It is commonly thought that there is matter (albeit a very small amount) everywhere, over all space.

[sunspot]

Is there a wall where the matter ends? Matter may need space to exist but space does not need matter to exist. Between the rarified matter is empty space, filled with only the local energy and the forces of nature. Beyond the matter/space perimeter there is a probably energy/space defining the true outers limits of space.

[[Tycho?]]

Is there a wall where the matter ends? Matter may need space to exist but space does not need matter to exist. Between the rarified matter is empty space, filled with only the local energy and the forces of nature. Beyond the matter/space perimeter there is a probably energy/space defining the true outers limits of space.

 

Probably not.

[aguy2]

Is there a wall where the matter ends? Matter may need space to exist but space does not need matter to exist. Between the rarified matter is empty space, filled with only the local energy and the forces of nature. Beyond the matter/space perimeter there is a probably energy/space defining the true outers limits of space.

 

I have been using the term "still/void" in lieu of 'unfilled position', 'void', or worse yet 'nothing'. "Still/void" implies what is not there, and from a theist's pov gives a theoretical Creator something(?) to work with that might not have any need to be itself created, but still might be seen as a precurser state of "time/space".

aguy2