RyanJ Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Hi all! Just wanted some opinions. Do casinos actally have the right to say card counting is cheating because I don't see it as cheating. If your simply counting numbers how can they say its cheating anymore then normal? I think its wrong ad think they do not have any right to tell card counters they can't count cards... The logic is correct, the rules do not specify its not allowed and your not using any decide to do the calculations for you so how can it be cheating? Opinions anyone? Cheers, Ryan Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Peon Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 A casino can make any rules it wants because it's a private business. And if the government for some reason forced casinos to allow card counters to be able to play, if I was the casino owner I would merely remove the games in question. Casinos exist to make money, not give it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanJ Posted April 11, 2006 Author Share Posted April 11, 2006 A casino can make any rules it wants because it's a private business. And if the government for some reason forced casinos to allow card counters to be able to play, if I was the casino owner I would merely remove the games in question. Casinos exist to make money, not give it out. But that was not the question - the question is do they have the right to say you can't simply count even when its not cheating because its not cheating... I say they don't have the right to say its cheating because its not, counting is not cheating any more than the calculations people do in their brains all the time. Cheers, Ryan Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Peon Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 But that was not the question - the question is do they have the right to say you can't simply count even when its not cheating because its not cheating... I say they don't have the right to say its cheating because its not' date=' counting is not cheating any more than the calculations people do in their brains all the time. Cheers, Ryan Jones[/quote'] But it is cheating. It increases the odds of winning drastically, so much so that the casino loses money. I call that cheating, and if I had a casino I would not allow it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanJ Posted April 11, 2006 Author Share Posted April 11, 2006 But it is cheating. It increases the odds of winning drastically, so much so that the casino loses money. I call that cheating, and if I had a casino I would not allow it either. But its not cheating... when you gamble you are judging the odds yourself ineffect doing a sum. They also do simmilar sums to predict their wins:loss ratio so they can ajust the values to make outcomes in their favour. So how is it cheating? If that is cheating everything is cheating too because your brain does calculations one way or another and they also do these sorts of sums to make things fall in their favour. So either if the counter is cheating then the casion is cheating too by doing the sums so they can amke an output in their favour... sorry if it works one way it works for both. Simple as that, its not cheating because your not using a device and your not breaking the rules of the game your simply assigning a value to a card thus allowing you to predict which card will come next - no cheating there. They just use it as an excuse to ban people who would win large amounts of money. Its not cheating anymore than counting is in a maths exam. Both increase your odds of getting the correct answer so how can you say one is cheating and yet counting in a maths exam is not? Cheers, Ryan Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Peon Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 But its not cheating... when you gamble you are judging the odds yourself ineffect doing a sum. They also do simmilar sums to predict their wins:loss ratio so they can ajust the values to make outcomes in their favour. So how is it cheating? If that is cheating everything is cheating too because your brain does calculations one way or another and they also do these sorts of sums to make things fall in their favour. So either if the counter is cheating then the casion is cheating too by doing the sums so they can amke an output in their favour... sorry if it works one way it works for both. Simple as that' date=' its not cheating because your not using a device and your not breaking the rules of the game your simply assigning a value to a card thus allowing you to predict which card will come next - no cheating there. They just use it as an excuse to ban people who would win large amounts of money. Cheers, Ryan Jones[/quote'] I'm sure i'm speaking for casino owners when I say, I don't care how you try to rationalize it. If you can find a system that allows you to beat the odds, you are cheating the system. It's like an athlete using steroids saying that it's not cheating cause his body produces the chemicals in question, just in smaller doses. If you can't play on the same level and expected playing field as my business wants, get the hell out and don't come back. I will say that I understand what you are getting at, and I agree to a large extent with your logic. But you have to look at it from the other point of view too to understand why they call it cheating, and why it is cheating in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanJ Posted April 11, 2006 Author Share Posted April 11, 2006 I will say that I understand what you are getting at' date=' and I agree to a large extent with your logic. But you have to look at it from the other point of view too to understand why they call it cheating, and why it[i'] is [/i]cheating in the end. Yes I do understand why they call it cheating - they stand to loose all their money if they allow it but thats not what I'm getting at. They simply define it as cheating because they can't create a game that can't be beaten give enough time so they pick out a potential weakness and call it cheating when in effect its not cheating at all. I understand why they do it but it does not make it right to say its cheating when its not. Like I said if a maths exam asked you to do a multiplication and you got the correct answer via a summation would it be cheating? No it does not matter you got the correct answer and they do not care how you did it. Thats it, I understand their reasoning but it does not mean they are right to do it thats all I'm saying Cheers, Ryan Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Peon Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Yes I do understand why they call it cheating - they stand to loose all their money if they allow it but thats not what I'm getting at. They simply define it as cheating because they can't create a game that can't be beaten give enough time so they pick out a potential weakness and call it cheating when in effect its not cheating at all. I understand why they do it but it does not make it right to say its cheating when its not. Like I said if a maths exam asked you to do a multiplication and you got the correct answer via a summation would it be cheating? No it does not matter you got the correct answer and they do not care how you did it. Thats it' date=' I understand their reasoning but it does not mean they are right to do it thats all I'm saying Cheers, Ryan Jones[/quote'] So you believe that gambling should have NO regulations stating rules or limits to how one can perform? As I mentioned earlier, in sports you can enhance your performance greatly through substances which occur in the body naturally. This is not allowed because it distorts the playing field. Most card counters do not do it through naturally inherited abilities. They learn how to do it. Hence, they are enhancing there own abilitys and with any type of thing thats regulated, if the establishment does not allow that sort of thing, it is cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanJ Posted April 11, 2006 Author Share Posted April 11, 2006 So you believe that gambling should have NO regulations stating rules or limits to how one can perform? As I mentioned earlier, in sports you can enhance your performance greatly through substances which occur in the body naturally. This is not allowed because it distorts the playing field. Most card counters do not do it through naturally inherited abilities. They learn how to do it. Hence, they are enhancing there own abilitys and with any type of thing thats regulated, if the establishment does not allow that sort of thing, it is [/i']cheating. No I do not believe restrictions like this should be allowed - in the end your not using anything you do not already have, everyone has a brain its just a mannor of using it in the correct manor to give you an answer. Restrictions using devices and such I do thing are fair. Drugs are not the same - you are using something to physically change your body or how your mind works - how can this be compared to counting which your brain can do without any assistance or without anything special being required? As for the learn point thtats not nessisarily true. Some people are naturally good with numbers - they have never had to learn to do anything they just do it automatically, savants are an example. Everyone can add so how is it cheating? Cheers, Ryan Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcol Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 The gambling dens (aka casinos) set the cheating precedent by rigging the rules to ensure the house always wins over time. They have the smarts, the punters are dumb. The only reason gambling is legal is because of the huge tax take. So if the punter retaliates by trying to even the odds, how is it cheating? Let us just call it tax avoidence if you are squeamish. The whole betting and gaming industry is a scam. The casinos have not a shred of moral justification for their activities, so how can they bleat about the poor mug punter cheating? It is the punter that needs the protection, if only from himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Peon Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 No I do not believe restrictions like this should be allowed - in the end your not using anything you do not already have' date=' everyone has a brain its just a mannor of using it in the correct manor to give you an answer. Restrictions using devices and such I do thing are fair. Drugs are not the same - you are using something to physically change your body or how your mind works - how can this be compared to counting which your brain can do without any assistance or without anything special being required? As for the learn point thtats not nessisarily true. Some people are naturally good with numbers - they have never had to learn to do anything they just do it automatically, savants are an example. Everyone can add so how is it cheating? Cheers, Ryan Jones[/quote'] As I mentioned earlier, if you learn how to beat the system, its cheating. I was using the drug scenario as an example. In the end, you are doing something that beats the system and that's all that matters. Who are you to decide what is cheating? No I do not believe restrictions like this should be allowed It's not your choice. Casinos are a private business, and if they want to call it cheating it's cheating. Here check this out: cheat ( P ) v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats v. tr. 1. To deceive by trickery; swindle 2. To deprive by trickery; defraud v. intr. 2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards. Certain expectations are placed on anyone who enters a casino to gamble. Expectations that one has submitted to the normal rules of chance and to be on the same level playing field as everyone else. This is due to the natural laws of probobility. The casinos know that if there games are played as they are supposed to, they may have to dish out some money once in a while but overall they will make money. When a card counter enters a casino, he is clearly a cheat because of definition 1 and 2, because I am sure he did not enter the casino so naive of his abilitys that he didn't know he would leave almost guarenteed more money than he entered. Secondly, casinos set rules because the establishment belongs to them. Once a rule is set (ie: NO card counters allowed), and one violates those house rules, they are cheats by definition of "2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards." And im pretty sure we can all say card counters are pretty deliberate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanJ Posted April 11, 2006 Author Share Posted April 11, 2006 The whole betting and gaming industry is a scam. The casinos have not a shred of moral justification for their activities' date=' so how can they bleat about the poor mug punter cheating? It is the punter that needs the protection, if only from himself.[/quote'] Thats true. I still don't class it as cheating though Cheers, Ryan Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 It's their house, so they get to make the rules. If you don't think it's cheating, you are (relatively) free to start up your own casino where card-counting is not against the rules. I think it's true that they want you to count if you are bad at it, because it encourages you to gamble more if you think you have a system that will beat the house. So casinos probably only enforce the rule if you are good at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcol Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 What puzzles me is, how do they know you are card counting? Do they have trained mindreaders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanJ Posted April 11, 2006 Author Share Posted April 11, 2006 As I mentioned earlier, if you learn how to beat the system, its cheating. I was using the drug scenario as an example. In the end, you are doing something that beats the system and that's all that matters. Who are you to decide what is cheating? How is doing something you can do without learnng cheating? Its not cheating because there is no rule saying specifically you can't count numbers. 1. To deceive by trickery; swindle 2. To deprive by trickery; defraud v. intr. 2. To violate rules deliberately' date=' as in a game: [i']was accused of cheating at cards.[/i] Sounds exactly like that they do... they scam, they defraid and they alter the rules as they please. If they can cheat then so can anyone else! In the end the fact remains your not doing anything you don't normally do - one way or another you count the cards thats how your able to make a judgement, its impossible not to count the cards, you always do it to some extent one way or another... Cheating would be uisng a machine (there have been cases of this) which should not be allowed as its in the rules but where in the rules does it forbid you to add numbers? They simply can't make such a rule because its impossible not too - weather they like it or not people DO always use sums. Its not a matter of what they say is correct. This is a discussion based on SHOULD they be allowed to have such a rule and I say no simply for the reason its not doing anything people don't do all the time. What puzzles me is' date=' how do they know you are card counting? Do they have trained mindreaders? [/quote'] Its simple - they train their people to card count. By doing this they can see what patterns people follow and so can tell if they are counting the cards. Cheers, Ryan Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcol Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Ryanj: Its simple - they train their people to card count. By doing this they can see what patterns people follow and so can tell if they are counting the cards. If that is true, end of argument. They cheat , but expect the punters not to! So go ahead suckers, count your asses off and good luck to you. Stuff the casinos. An eye for an eye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Peon Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 edit: sorry double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Peon Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 How is doing something you can do without learnng cheating? Its not cheating because there is no rule saying specifically you can't count numbers. Yes there is a rule. I live near Atlantic City and they clearly state card counters are NOT allowed. Sounds exactly like that they do... they scam, they defraid and they alter the rules as they please. If they can cheat then so can anyone else! They can do whatever they want and all you can have is an opinion on the matter. There rules stand because they invested money in a business. There business, there rules, it's not cheating. You should have a reasonable expectation of what you are getting into when you enter a casino. You know what you are getting into. They however, do NOT know who you are and what your reasons for being there are. Thus they make rules ahead of time on who they want in THERE business. You (speaking in general) are the gullible naive person to blow your money on gambling. Me personally, I have not spent a single penny in my entire life on gambling in any form. Not even the lottery. In the end the fact remains your not doing anything you don't normally do - one way or another you count the cards thats how your able to make a judgement, its impossible not to count the cards, you always do it to some extent one way or another... It doesn't matter. The same old argument as before, its there establishment built and run by there money, and thus it's there rules PERIOD. It's not up to you who can enter a private business. It's up to them. Cheating would be uisng a machine (there have been cases of this) which should not be allowed as its in the rules but where in the rules does it forbid you to add numbers? They simply can't make such a rule because its impossible not too - weather they like it or not people DO always use sums. Regardless, as mentioned before, card counters teach themselves how to do it. I doubt very few people have a natural ability to count cards well, and I doubt even further anyone who can do it naturally would enter a casino naive to there abilitys. Its not a matter of what they say is correct. This is a discussion based on SHOULD they be allowed to have such a rule and I say no simply for the reason its not doing anything people don't do all the time. Fine. I gave you my opinion many times allready. Yes the rules should be allowed. Why? Because its there money, there property, there employees, there... etc... etc etc etc. You are the customer, you adhere to there rules. You enter a restaurant and ask for extra pickels and the waitress tells you they dont add extra pickles, you dont get extra pickles. Same for any business. They decide how to run it. Edit: I have to go to lunch and do some actual work here ( I am at my job) so I will check back in a bit to respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnB Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 Peon, while I agree that the casino may have any rules it wishes, card counting is not cheating. Calling it such doesn't make it so. The card counter in no way affects the laws of probability that govern the game, he is merely calculating the odds. This is no different from what a professional poker player does to consistently win. The odds of drawing the cards you want versus what it will cost you to stay in the game. In some games of Stud Poker, some of your opponents cards are face up on the table. If you need a 7 of spades to fill your straight flush and you can see the card in front of your opponent, then you can calculate that the odds of drawing a 7 spades is zero and modify your play accordingly. A card counter is merely doing a more complex version of the same operation. He doesn't alter probability in any way, he's just not betting when the odds are against him. Though again, as you say, it's their house and their rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 ryan, I agree with you to a point, card counting is NOT cheating, any more than an athlete that trains hard is cheating, and any ref to Steroids is Strawmanning and Wildly inaccurate, akin to using X-ray specs or an insider as the croupier! that Would be cheating. however casinos DO have the right to forbid this activity, same as you can`t smoke in certain places/buildings. they don`t have the right to call it Cheating though! as it ISN`T Cheating, it`s simply playing the game with Excellence the peon, I expect you`de consider studying the form of a horse before making a bet cheating also then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanJ Posted April 12, 2006 Author Share Posted April 12, 2006 ryan' date=' I agree with you to a point, card counting is NOT cheating, any more than an athlete that trains hard is cheating, and any ref to Steroids is Strawmanning and Wildly inaccurate, akin to using X-ray specs or an insider as the croupier! that Would be cheating.however casinos DO have the right to forbid this activity, same as you can`t smoke in certain places/buildings. they don`t have the right to call it Cheating though! as it ISN`T Cheating, it`s simply playing the game with Excellence [/quote'] Exactly, like I said its not cheating and they have no right to call it cheating but if they want to make a rule against it then thats different, they have that right now not the right to call it cheating when its not. Your analogy is better them mine Cheers, Ryan Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetrahedrite Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 Exactly' date=' like I said its not cheating and they have no right to call it cheating but if they want to make a rule against it then thats different, they have that right now not the right to call it cheating when its not. Your analogy is better them mine Cheers, Ryan Jones[/quote'] The way I see it, the casinos are not banning you from cheating (because I too do not consider counting the cards as cheating), it is a ban on you excessive winning, which is fiscally responsible (at least for the casino). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 Peon' date=' while I agree that the casino may have any rules it wishes, card counting is not cheating. Calling it such doesn't make it so. The card counter in no way affects the laws of probability that govern the game, he is merely calculating the odds. This is no different from what a professional poker player does to consistently win. The odds of drawing the cards you want versus what it will cost you to stay in the game. In some games of Stud Poker, some of your opponents cards are face up on the table. If you need a 7 of spades to fill your straight flush and you can see the card in front of your opponent, then you can calculate that the odds of drawing a 7 spades is zero and modify your play accordingly. A card counter is merely doing a more complex version of the same operation. He doesn't alter probability in any way, he's just not betting when the odds are against him. Though again, as you say, it's their house and their rules.[/quote'] Actually I said that last bit, but oh well. Cheating: breaking the rules to gain an advantage So while you are correct that the odds have not changed, the card-counter does gain an advantage. It matters not a whit if you (or anyone) considers it cheating, it only matters if the ones that make and enforce the rules consider it cheating. (And there are people that exceed the speed limit that don't consider it breaking the law, and people that download music that they haven't paid for that don't consider it stealing. But that's all rationalization.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanJ Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 Actually I said that last bit' date=' but oh well. Cheating: breaking the rules to gain an advantage[/quote'] So how can it be cheating when they hire card counters to do exactly the same thingin their favour? Its not really giving an advantage, its just doing what people normally do but with a better method Cheers, Ryan Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnB Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 Sorry Swansont, I was paraphrasing this comment from Peon There business, there rules, it's not cheating. and it came out the same as your comment. I most humbly offer a thousand apologies for which I beg but one pardon. (How does one prostrate oneself on the net?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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