Heaven?

[theMaharajah]

whats your imput?

 

i have come to the conclusion that its scientifically impossible

[ydoaPs]

it would help if you define "heaven".

[Royston]

whats your imput?

 

i have come to the conclusion that its scientifically impossible

 

...and justify why it's scientifically impossible.

[Daecon]

Can you explain your reasoning?

[YT2095]

yes, how DID you arrive at such a profound conclusion!?

or indeed test your predictions.

[Phi for All]

whats your imput?

My input is that heaven is not observable by definition, therefore it can't be proved or disproved by scientific method.

[gcol]

Don't take the bait of his pseudo-existentalist non-questions. He is already in a heaven of his own imagination. Unfortunately he seems to have a Jacobs ladder enabling him to descend to earth fron time to time. Burn the damn ladder.

[theMaharajah]

Im sorry, but based upon my own beliefs I don't think heaven exists; I didn't mean for this to incite such a flame war...

 

and I don't feel the need to explain my deepest beliefs and relationship with god and an afterlife to everyone on this forum.. I was asking how you all felt... but apparantly my motive was lost

[Phi for All]

Im sorry, but based upon my own beliefs I don't think heaven exists;

Do you see how different this statement is from:

i have come to the conclusion that its scientifically impossible

Your original claim invoked the principles of science, the second invoked the principles of faith. Science and faith, while not incompatible, should never be used interchangeably.

I didn't mean for this to incite such a flame war...

It's only because you've touched on a sensitive issue. You are not the first to come here and declare science can prove heaven doesn't exist.

and I don't feel the need to explain my deepest beliefs and relationship with god and an afterlife to everyone on this forum.. I was asking how you all felt...

Soooo... you're saying, "You show me yours but mine is too personal"?

[theMaharajah]

I dont feel comfortable sharing my beliefs but if others do.. be my guest, be my guest, but our service to the test, tie a napkin round your neck cherie and we provide the rest, soup du jour, hot h'ordeurves, why we only live to serve, try the grey stuff, its delicious, dont believe me ask the dishes

 

 

sorry, i have showtunes on the brain, but i understand how touchy this subject is lets just turn the thread around to this:

"If heaven exists what would you like god to say to you when you arrive there?"

"What is your favorite smell?"

 

 

im sorry guys you guys are really great, im sorry for causing so much drama, no no drama, no no no no drama.

[abskebabs]

I don't mean to offend anyone by saying this but; is it reasonable to assume we will have a life after death when we never had one before birth?

[aj47]

But in the same way as life after death, we cannot disprove the idea of a previous life, assuming we had no memory of it.

[abskebabs]

If we die and have no memory of our previous lives, from our own experience isn't it practically the same as dying and not having another life? If you're not aware of it then you pretty much died anyway, especially if your soul has nothing to do with your inherited characteristics[from your genes] and the kind of person you have become[from the interactions with your surroundings].

[VikingF]

If we die and have no memory of our previous lives, from our own experience isn't it practically the same as dying and not having another life? If you're not aware of it then you pretty much died anyway, especially if your soul has nothing to do with your inherited characteristics[from your genes] and the kind of person you have become[from the interactions with your surroundings'].

 

 

Except if this it true, then you (or to be more specific, the new "you") will keep experiencing, of course without any knowledge of what the old you experienced earlier.

On the other hand, if this is false, then you (which will not exist) will not experience anything more.

 

I think that is the big difference.

[pretender]

To what purpose would it be to have had another life. You would need memory to make it all worthwhile, I think we have only one life. Some dont live the One. There is no heaven, why should there be???????

[Phi for All]

To what purpose would it be to have had another life. You would need memory to make it all worthwhile, I think we have only one life. Some dont live the One. There is no heaven, why should there be???????

What if the memory you retain from a past life is so different from this one that you don't consciously compare it? What if the next life is so vastly different from this one that your memories from this one will also be hard to compare? We know that, if consciousness lives on, the body doesn't. Your consciousness will either have a new body, possibly with a new array of senses, or you will be pure consciousness.

 

I don't look on heaven as some kind of paradise, but rather as a life after this one. For what purpose? What's the purpose of this one?

[pretender]

To what end. I ask?????Phi for All

[Phi for All]

To what end. I ask?????

Let's see... what if your consciousness is joined with that of others after you die and you inhabit one of the higher dimensions using the gravitational force to communicate across multiple universes of probability?

 

Have you ever considered that the human form, for all it's sophistication, may be simply a larval one? Perhaps this body we have is hindering the development of far greater senses and capacities which are exposed only after we shed it and transform into the next stage in our metamorphisis.

 

Perhaps the next step after this one is also just another phase, and eventually we will join with yet more consciousnesses and become something we might view as god-like. Maybe there is no one, omnipotent God, maybe there are many god-consciousness-fusions who each govern a certain territory of the universe (although access to higher dimensions may make travel across the universe practically instantaneous).

 

To what end, you ask? To keep the universe flowing towards a collective consciousness, perhaps? Or to take evolution to it's highest forms? Or to keep the simmering and stirring a cosmic ragout for the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

[pretender]

I must read more comics????????phi for all

[Phi for All]

I must read more comics????????

Oh, yes, no doubt about it, you've hit the nail on the head, you're spot on, that's exactly what I mean.

[arcticwolf86]

When I write, I mean not to try to convert ye all to Christianity, but these are my views (not saying that I do not want ye to all be brethren through Jesus):

 

Birth is the creation that God has. He creates you at birth. You become someone and something. You had never existed before your birth, because you are now being created. If any know of computer programming, its similar to variables. You must first declare the variable before instantiating(sp?) it, or giving it a value.

 

Death is the changing of the human body. Most people think death is becoming no longer in existence. I believe that you still exist and you are then "transferred" or "moved" to another place. Now some Christians believe that the Dead know nothing and that they are in an "deap sleep that only God can awake you from". This is still being debated upon in my beliefs.

 

Life is a trial. A trial to show Jesus what we can do, what we are made of, and really who we are. The way we live our life determines on where we go.

 

If we live a Christian life, one that is focused on helping others and having faith in Jesus Christ, I believe that our "spirits" long to be with the one that we have desired so long. And therefore, since we truly WANT to be eternally united with our Lord Jesus, we shall do so. If we have just lived life and didnt have Faith in Jesus Christ, then I believe that we will remain on this Earth for the Millenium (those Christians out there know what I am talking about).

 

I truly believe that FAITH is the key to heaven. Without it, there is no unlocking of the door.

 

So to answer the question. Heaven? Many people try to solve this mystery. Many people believe that since it is not tangible, it is not possible. But for me, because of my FAITH, I believe it exists. I believe that the only way for one to truly believe is through FAITH. It says in the Bible that God does things that the human mind does not and cannot understand. I believe that Heaven is one of those things. I believe through the faith I have through Jesus Christ. This allows me to understand, not completely, but yet still understand that there does exist a heaven.

[abskebabs]

When I write' date=' I mean not to try to convert ye all to Christianity, but these are my views (not saying that I do not want ye to all be brethren through Jesus):

 

Birth is the creation that God has. He creates you at birth. You become someone and something. You had never existed before your birth, because you are now being created. If any know of computer programming, its similar to variables. You must first declare the variable before instantiating(sp?) it, or giving it a value.

 

Death is the changing of the human body. Most people think death is becoming no longer in existence. I believe that you still exist and you are then "transferred" or "moved" to another place. Now some Christians believe that the Dead know nothing and that they are in an "deap sleep that only God can awake you from". This is still being debated upon in my beliefs.

Life is a trial. A trial to show Jesus what we can do, what we are made of, and really who we are. The way we live our life determines on where we go.

 

If we live a Christian life, one that is focused on helping others and having faith in Jesus Christ, I believe that our "spirits" long to be with the one that we have desired so long. And therefore, since we truly WANT to be eternally united with our Lord Jesus, we shall do so. If we have just lived life and didnt have Faith in Jesus Christ, then I believe that we will remain on this Earth for the Millenium (those Christians out there know what I am talking about).

 

I truly believe that FAITH is the key to heaven. Without it, there is no unlocking of the door.

 

So to answer the question. Heaven? Many people try to solve this mystery. Many people believe that since it is not tangible, it is not possible. But for me, because of my FAITH, I believe it exists. I believe that the only way for one to truly believe is through FAITH. It says in the Bible that God does things that the human mind does not and cannot understand. I believe that Heaven is one of those things. I believe through the faith I have through Jesus Christ. This allows me to understand, not completely, but yet still understand that there does exist a heaven.[/quote']

 

There are some mundanely obvious questions that I thought of while reading your post like; Who created god, and if god is independent of the principle of causality then isn't it inherently innacurate to say that he created the universe? What is God, simply a super-intelligent programmer? If God has preprogrammed us and the entire Universe before hand, why do we believe we have a free will and why should this god punish us for fulfilling a destiny which was predetermined?

 

From looking at these types of questions, you can see that I am using several analogies(which you used as well) to try and describe what you mentioned God as. The thing is, to me it seems even though language is our only method of communication, it very much distorts our original expressions and ideas. On top of that when we interpret the words we say we undergo another stage of limiting the original message spoken. Not only that, but when we speak, or try to compile our thoughts we limit our understanding in terms of what is familiar language.

 

Sorry if I'm drifting off but. my main point is that we continually restrict our ideas and religious ideas and philosophies by continually trying to compartmentalise them in a familiar mould. Much of this inescapable, as if we think we compile the processes going on in the brain into what we can perceive as words in order to produce something tangibly understandable for others(like I am struggling to do now:D ).

 

As I am not even sure about the validity of what I have just been talking about, I would like to know what other deep thinkers reading this post;) perceive of the following question: Do we think in terms of words, sentences, pictures etc or are these simply what we get when we try to compile the abstract thought processes of our mind into something "meaningful" or tangible in the everyday sense?

 

I guess this leaves us with the question; without knowing if there is a God for sure (this is where faith comes in) are we not constantly reinventing our God and the principle ideas underlying it with the passage of time? Also finally and slightly controversially:-) (I am not declaring my position on this matter, I simply pose the question): Could belief in a God itself simply be a beneficial delusion that is necessary to our survival? Belief in God often helps ppl get through difficult lives, for example, I was reading in the paper a few months ago a letter written by an Iraqi girl who said she doubted she would have coped wiht life there had it not been for her belief. Belief in God can make us be healthier and less depressed(I think a survey was carried out related to this but I don't know when or where).

 

Beleif in God could(I'm not saying it is!) be much like the beneficial delusion of a woman with a slight lump in her stomach convinced that she is pregnant, therefore making her content(I know this could also make her unhappy but it's just an example!).

 

Sorry if i bored with you I'm sure a lot of that reads like garbage...

 

Also here are some links related to religious beliefs, evolution and delusions.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg18925361.300.html

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg18925361.100.html

[arcticwolf86]

Well first off, who created God? To me, I do not need to know this information. To me, since I am a believer, I shall listen to God. But as far as my opinion goes, God was not created. He is the creator. The Bible talks about things that we cannot understand because God created us that way(I did talk about this last post). Instead, God gave us the knowledge to make the choice, whether to believe or not to believe. With this being true, it is VERY possible that God was created and we just don't understand it.

 

But this is where my "preaching" stands out, but keep in mind, as a Brother in Christ, I do not mean to offend anyone. There are many many people trying to find the answers to life. How to travel at the speed of light, and how to communicate "psychopathically". Many of these are science based, but not all. Here is my stance. The Bible is God's word. It is a roadmap to live by. God commands certain things from us. God has given us the opportunity in which we seek. To find those answers to the questions I was speaking of, we must first receive salvation. Once we are welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven, we become knowledgable beyond the smartest scientist and engineers of today's standards. God gave the choice. God gave the way. God showed us that it is indeed possible through his son Jesus. Now, all we have to do is choose the option. It is more rough than choosing other wise. It will be difficult. But I assure you, my brothers and sisters through Jesus, that you will have a greater reward than choosing otherwise.

 

"Do we think in terms of words, sentences, pictures etc or are these simply what we get when we try to compile the abstract thought processes of our mind into something "meaningful" or tangible in the everyday sense?"

This, to me, is another one of the questions I was talking about earlier. I think we do not need to know this. Of what value is this? I do not mean to say that it is stupid and not worth asking, but this is just merely my own opinion.

 

So what it boils down to is this: Say I offer you a peacful and happy life, no pain, no death, just always happy and content, but all you have to do is live your current life a certain way. What would you do? Would you fully want the content and peace of the life I have offered, or go your own way and 'have your own fun' and eventually die? I believe this is the true choice. Who wouldn't want to live and meet the Creator and the one who loves us so? But ultimately, the choice is yours to make.

[abskebabs]

So what it boils down to is this: Say I offer you a peacful and happy life, no pain, no death, just always happy and content, but all you have to do is live your current life a certain way. What would you do? Would you fully want the content and peace of the life I have offered, or go your own way and 'have your own fun' and eventually die? I believe this is the true choice. Who wouldn't want to live and meet the Creator and the one who loves us so? But ultimately, the choice is yours to make.

 

The thing is I have absolutely no rational reason to believe what you or others tell me about what will happen to me after I die(if anything), and neither do you for that matter. I have no doubt that most ppl would want what you offer, and may be part the reason a lot of ppl are devoutly religious. I can understand this too, it is something we will believe simply because we want to believe. Thinking about your question however, I have come to a few deductions.

 

It seems that you are suggesting that I would be carrying out my actions in my current life by thinking of the reward I would receive. To me, this does not seem right.

 

Happiness seems to me a very subtle emotion arising out of the actions we do and how our overall enviroment around us interacts with us. It does not seem to me something you would blissfully experience throughout the rest of your existence, nor something you would truly appreciate or notice without experiencing the opposite emotions. To me it seems, we should not try and seek a world of happiness, and by doing so allow ourselves to become hostages to the ups and of this world we inhabit, avoiding material attachment. We should try and see beyond it.

 

I guess in the end our religious beliefs are not things that are not born out of rationality, but come from a deeper feeling or instinct we all posess. My own religious beliefs(philosophy, I'm not sure how best to describe it) differ from yours, but I have no way of really being able to make a rational argument over mine or yours, as the 2 are not a product of it ultimately. To me atheism seems to be one of the most pragmatic philosophies(if it is one), for example by the principle of occam's razr, but ultimately this does not affect me. Perhaps there is a limit to what we can comprehend...