what to do about illegal immigration

[entwined]

It looks like congress is stalled about what to do and it also looks like this is one issue where Bush and Kennedy are on the same side (or at least close).

 

Building a wall would be expensive and probably wouldn't work very well anyway and even if we did staunch the inflow, what are we going to do about the 11 million or so who are already here?

 

Some of those already here have been here for a decade or so, some are married to Americans, some have children who are American citizens and I don't think we are capable of rounding up 11 million people for deportation anyway.

 

Anybody got any bright ideas?

[insane_alien]

chillax, have an alcoholic beverage then listen to some tunes and discuss the philosophical implications of teletubbies.

[In My Memory]

Entwined,

It looks like congress is stalled about what to do and it also looks like this is one issue where Bush and Kennedy are on the same side (or at least close).

 

Building a wall would be expensive and probably wouldn't work very well anyway and even if we did staunch the inflow' date=' what are we going to do about the 11 million or so who are already here?

 

Some of those already here have been here for a decade or so, some are married to Americans, some have children who are American citizens and I don't think we are capable of rounding up 11 million people for deportation anyway.

 

Anybody got any bright ideas?[/quote']

The big argument against immigration is the cost, but deportation and building walls on the border are costly too. We can minimize the cost of immigrants overall by requiring them to pay taxes, insurance, and pay for other services, just like we expect legal residents to do.

 

As for my own feelings about immigration, I really like the point of view summed up in the essay Famine, Affluence, and Moralty by Peter Singer. Illegal immigrants should be treated like refugees, and they are coming to the US because living in their own country is constant misery. The US has the resources to relieve the misery of immigrants for a relatively small cost, so thats just what we're obligated to do. Turning them away would be morally wrong.

[Jim]

Entwined' date='

 

The big argument against immigration is the cost, but deportation and building walls on the border are costly too. We can minimize the cost of immigrants overall by requiring them to pay taxes, insurance, and pay for other services, just like we expect legal residents to do.

 

As for my own feelings about immigration, I really like the point of view summed up in the essay Famine, Affluence, and Moralty by Peter Singer. Illegal immigrants should be treated like refugees, and they are coming to the US because living in their own country is constant misery. The US has the resources to relieve the misery of immigrants for a relatively small cost, so thats just what we're obligated to do. Turning them away would be morally wrong.

 

Do you think it immoral to place any limits on immigration? If not, should we attempt to diversify immigration? There's a lot of misery throughout the world, not just in S. America.

[ecoli]

The big argument against immigration is the cost' date=' but deportation and building walls on the border are costly too. We can minimize the cost of immigrants overall by requiring them to pay taxes, insurance, and pay for other services, just like we expect legal residents to do.[/quote']

I've done some research on this. By making it easier for illegals to come into this country, you would open up our country to further immigration. The 20-30 million immigrants would want to bring their families over as well, and the number becomes a lot higher then that.

 

The center for Immigration studies (http://www.cis.org) has some really enlightening articles. According to their models, legitamizing illegals will actually increase the tax burden, because they would be entitled to even more benefits then they currently get.

 

Also, take into consideration that 29% of prison inmates are illegal immigrants. They are overcrowding prisons, hospitals and schools.

 

Not that diversity isn't a good things, but don;t you think, as Americans, we should try and retain our boarders, language and culture?

 

As for my own feelings about immigration, I really like the point of view summed up in the essay Famine, Affluence, and Moralty by Peter Singer. Illegal immigrants should be treated like refugees, and they are coming to the US because living in their own country is constant misery. The US has the resources to relieve the misery of immigrants for a relatively small cost, so thats just what we're obligated to do. Turning them away would be morally wrong.

 

Why should illegals be treated like refugees? They broke the law to get into the country and they work illegally, often forging papers and documents to stay here. Sure, living in other countries may be miserable, but why should we have to lower our standard of living and allow immigrant labour to take jobs, because they are willing to work for less, from American citizens.

 

The burden of supporting illegals rests on the taxpayers, who shouldn't have to support people living in this country illegally. If we have a moral obligation to help these people, then isn't that obligation better placed in fighting corruption in their home countries, where all the residence can reap the benefits?? Then, we could have stable foriegn markets to invest in, rather then have illegals suck the money out of our economy.

 

Turning them away would not be morally wrong. If people want to enter the country, they should do so legally, or not at all. Do we really want to become a nation of lawbreakers?

 

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/13745.html - Do we really want illegals taking over part of our country?

[Sisyphus]

Why don't we just make it easier to immigrate legally? I mean, it's not like these people are actually causing significant problems. The only problem is the embarrassment of impotent laws.

[zyncod]

Yeah, let's all of a sudden start worrying about the Mexicans, after how many years? Displacement, anyone?

 

Why exactly is this such a big issue now, given that we have the better part of a thousand issues to worry about first.

[Sisyphus]

Ha, ecoli, I just noticed. Are you seriously linking to the Conservative Voice?

[entwined]

I have always wondered why Mexico is so poor. They have resources and obviously the people are willing to work.

 

From what I have read, the government is so corrupt that only a very few have anything at all.

 

How about if we formented a revolution in Mexico so the people could establish a government that might create an economic system that produces more wealth for them to share in?

 

Or, how about if we approach Mexico and see if they want to become our next 7 states? (I understand there are about 7 states in Mexico?)

[ecoli]

Ha, ecoli, I just noticed. Are you seriously linking to the Conservative Voice?

 

Not to the newspaper in general. The article I posted is only 2 paragraphs (only enough time to present the facts) It basically is talking about how newspapers of illegal immigrants are calling for the takeover for the American Southwest, in the name of Mexico. I know this is probably only a few extremists, but it's obviously having influence. At recent demonstrations, people were holding up signs, written in Spanish, calling for the same thing.

 

Yeah' date=' let's all of a sudden start worrying about the Mexicans, after how many years? Displacement, anyone?

 

Why exactly is this such a big issue now, given that we have the better part of a thousand issues to worry about first.[/quote']

 

Because it has enormous financial and economic implications. The gov't spends tens of billions of dollors in support of illegal immigrants, and at the rate illegal immigration is increasing, that number will get steadily higher. Basicly, American taxpayers are supporting, through welfare and other means, people who broke the laws to get into the country, take jobs away from Americans (especially in the construction field), many illegals refuse to learn how to speak english, and crowd our prisons. We're paying to loose our jobs and to dissolve our culture. To me, this defies all logic.

[Callipygous]

Motion sensing automatic machine guns.

[ecoli]

Motion sensing automatic machine guns.

 

lol... but seriously, replace machine gun with camera/ alarm system, and increase the people on boarder patrol, and that's a good idea. Despite all my ramblings, I would never believe that illegal immigration is a punishable by death offense.

 

In any case, I'm more for the stopage of illegal immigration rather then the disposal of illegals already here. We should deport of all the illegals in prisons, and seal our boarders (to illegal immigrants, not legal, obviously).

[Callipygous]

lol... but seriously

 

*stares at ecoli with no expression*

[Sisyphus]

Not to the newspaper in general. The article I posted is only 2 paragraphs (only enough time to present the facts) It basically is talking about how newspapers of illegal immigrants are calling for the takeover for the American Southwest, in the name of Mexico. I know this is probably only a few extremists, but it's obviously having influence. At recent demonstrations, people were holding up signs, written in Spanish, calling for the same thing.

 

Yes, and American flags outnumbered any other a hundred to one. 2 paragraphs is enough...

 

Because it has enormous financial and economic implications. The gov't spends tens of billions of dollors in support of illegal immigrants, and at the rate illegal immigration is increasing, that number will get steadily higher. Basicly, American taxpayers are supporting, through welfare and other means, people who broke the laws to get into the country, take jobs away from Americans (especially in the construction field), many illegals refuse to learn how to speak english, and crowd our prisons. We're paying to loose our jobs and to dissolve our culture. To me, this defies all logic.

 

Any statistics?

 

I might also ask how this is really different from any other immigration influx in American history.

[Pangloss]

Altruism by force is not altruism, IMM. Don't volunteer my tax money for your personal socialist projects. Yeesh! ;-)

 

But serially, we already DO take in millions of "refugees" and provide them with comfort and sanctuary. I'm not sure what we would do with half a billion Africans suddenly showing up on our doorstep.

 

"I will work harder," said Boxer.

[Jim]

Altruism by force is not altruism' date=' IMM. Don't volunteer my tax money for your personal socialist projects. Yeesh! ;-)

 

But serially, we already DO take in millions of "refugees" and provide them with comfort and sanctuary. I'm not sure what we would do with half a billion Africans suddenly showing up on our doorstep.

 

"I will work harder," said Boxer.[/quote']

 

Let alone the homeland security issues such a free flow would present.....

[KLB]

First more needs to punish employers who hire illegal aliens. Right now the whole system is a joke and there are no real reprecussions for hiring illegal aliens. Too often sleezy employers hire illegals not because no body else would do the job, but because nobody else would do the job at the poverty level wages they want to pay and because they know illegals can't really complain about bad working conditions. Yes shutting down illegal labor would increase the cost of goods due to increased labor costs, but maybe people should be paid a living wage to begin with so that they aren't forced to live in poverty.

 

Second illegals broke our laws getting into this country. Why should we reward people who broke our laws the moment they set foot on U.S. soil when there are so many law abiding people who are trying really hard to get into this country legally and are being denied access. Imigration reform need to make it easier to get into this country legally and create greater punishments for entering this country illegally. If we really need imigrant labor then we need to make it easier to get into this country legally. All the current system does is reward the law breakers and punish the lawful.

[In My Memory]

My apologies for not getting to this earlier

 

 

Jim,

Do you think it immoral to place any limits on immigration? If not, should we attempt to diversify immigration? There's a lot of misery throughout the world, not just in S. America.

I could see that limits based on health could be justified, and possibly reasons of national security.

 

Ecoli,

I've done some research on this. By making it easier for illegals to come into this country' date=' you would open up our country to further immigration. The 20-30 million immigrants would want to bring their families over as well, and the number becomes a lot higher then that.

 

The center for Immigration studies (http://www.cis.org) has some really enlightening articles. According to their models, legitamizing illegals will actually increase the tax burden, because they would be entitled to even more benefits then they currently get.

 

Also, take into consideration that 29% of prison inmates are illegal immigrants. They are overcrowding prisons, hospitals and schools.[/quote']

First, illegal immigrants make up 11% of the prison population. And if overcrowding is the problem then your not making an argument against illegal immigration (who make up a minority of immigrants who come into the country), you're making an argument against any kind of immigration which undermines your later comments stressing the claim that "They broke the law to get into the country and they work illegally".

 

Not that diversity isn't a good things, but don;t you think, as Americans, we should try and retain our boarders, language and culture?

I dont really have a problem with little Chinatowns or Koreatowns popping up.

 

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/13745.html - Do we really want illegals taking over part of our country?

You're not one of those types that calls illegal immigration a foreign invasion?

 

The burden of supporting illegals rests on the taxpayers, who shouldn't have to support people living in this country illegally.

So you wouldnt have a problem with illegal immigration if we just made them pay taxes like everyone else? So that, when you say "supporting illegals rests on the taxpayers", the people included in the group of taxpayers are the illegal immigrants themselves. This is exactly what I said in my first post.

 

But I'm also interested in just what taxburden you're talking about. Illegal immigrants are ineligible to recieve welfare, social security, and most public-funded healthcare. I could imagine that they are a tax burden because in the sense that employers can hire immigrant workers without being required to pay additional social security taxes because illegal immigrants would never reports those kinds of problems, but then the tax burden is a consequence of the crackdowns on immigration itself (i.e. policies restricting immigrants are actually the cause of the tax burden associated with immigration), and this can be solved really easily by treating immigrants like legal residents and requiring them to pay taxes.

 

However, I can also imagine that there would be a tax burden when immigrants get hurt and require surgery, and because they are not covered by insurance the state has to pick up the tab. However, that isnt a problem with illegal immigration itself, its a problem with certain business practices. For instance, Walmart has a notorious problem of refusing to pay health benefits which forces all its workers to rely on the state to pick up health bills. That kind of unnecessary tax burden exists no matter who fills the jobs, illegal immigrants are not, so cracking down on illegal immigration doesnt solve the actual problem.

 

Now, if you think there is *still* going to be a tax problem even when we require immigrants to pay taxes (I'll leave it up to you to find the data to support that claim), then your objection really wouldnt have much to do with enforcing legal immigration, but it would have everything to do with reducing the total number of immigrants altogether (both legal and illegal). This is basically the same thing as saying that you would refuse citizenship to immigrants altogether, or even strip existing citizenships away.

 

If we have a moral obligation to help these people, then isn't that obligation better placed in fighting corruption in their home countries, where all the residence can reap the benefits?? Then, we could have stable foriegn markets to invest in, rather then have illegals suck the money out of our economy.

How exactly do we go about fighting corruption in foreign countries? Should we invade, overthrow the governments, and replace them with one of our own making?

 

And then what about those foreign markets? Theres no single "foreign market", there are *a lot* of different kinds of foreign markets, including currency exchange, investing overseas corporations, investing in hedge funds. And the exchange in these markets are controlled by huge corporations like Citigroup, Merrel Lynch, JP Morgan, and some foreign counterparts, and they've been around for years and years and will continue to exist for decades in the future. Unless you feel like making really bad monetary decisions like trying to tie the Argentina dollar to the US dollar, then its pretty safe to invest in the foreign market. Ironically, if you enjoy the ramblings Pat Buchanon, investing in any foreign markets is the same thing as sucking money out of our economy (he bases this reasoning on situations where very rich Americans spend US$millions on vacations in foreign countries, which could have been reinvested into our own economy... Pat Buchanon doesnt believe in fungible economies, so he's an advocate of isolationism). I'm not sure what illegal immigration has at all to do with the stability of any of the foreign markets.

[-Demosthenes-]

The 20-30 million immigrants would want to bring their families over as well, and the number becomes a lot higher then that.

 

From Mexico?? Some how I doubt a third of the population of Mexico with move the US in any small amount of time.

 

Why shouldn't it be easy for immigrants to come into the US? As long as they aren't criminals, and then they aren't given so many hand outs that they won't try I think we're good.

 

The center for Immigration studies (www.cis.org[/url']) has some really enlightening articles. According to their models, legitamizing illegals will actually increase the tax burden, because they would be entitled to even more benefits then they currently get.

 

Even illegals are already entitled to some medical care, and yes, even an interpreter to talk between them and the doctor.

 

Don't want to give them the benefits of citizens, too late. Why not let them start paying taxes, some of them do that already!

 

Not that diversity isn't a good things, but don;t you think, as Americans, we should try and retain our boarders, language and culture?

 

Our borders, sure. We need to secure them much better, but it should also be a lot easier to get in legally.

 

Language? Who cares what language anyone speaks? If we speak English and they can't get along without learning it, then too bad. But you're saying that if someone speaks Spanish you don't have to learn their language to deal with them? Is it culture superiority or does a language logically go with a geographic location and cannot be changed? If the latter the we should all be speaking something rather different than English.

 

Culture? Why would having some people (or even a lot of people for that matter) with a different culture living near you be bad? Is it frightening?

 

Why should illegals be treated like refugees? They broke the law to get into the country and they work illegally, often forging papers and documents to stay here. Sure, living in other countries may be miserable, but why should we have to lower our standard of living and allow immigrant labour to take jobs, because they are willing to work for less, from American citizens.

 

They should be disciplined for the law, provided that it is within our moral bounds. But things as extreme as deportation are just impractical.

 

The burden of supporting illegals rests on the taxpayers, who shouldn't have to support people living in this country illegally.

 

Make them pay taxes too, some of them already do.

 

Why don't we just make it easier to immigrate legally? I mean, it's not like these people are actually causing significant problems. The only problem is the embarrassment of impotent laws.

 

I completely agree.

 

Or, how about if we approach Mexico and see if they want to become our next 7 states? (I understand there are about 7 states in Mexico?)

 

That's thinking outside the box for you. I like the idea, some of our American ignorance (or "faith" whatever you want to call it) can rub off on them.

 

First more needs to punish employers who hire illegal aliens.

 

In my opinion this is more important than securing the borders. No jobs for illegals to have = much less illegals.

 

I dont really have a problem with little Chinatowns or Koreatowns popping up.

 

As I have explained, it's frightening...

[cyberquiet]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't US corporations massively moving their factories to Mexico so they can pay employess 60 cents per hour?

If it's so, why shouldn't a Mexican citizen ask himself: <<why should I work for these US corporations doing the same things (or worse) US citizen were doing one year ago and be paid a tenth?>>

If it's not so, I'm sure they've serious problems making a living in their country, otherwise they wouldn't do such a desperate thing...

 

As Lester Brown says:

And each day Mexicans risk their lives in the Arizona desert trying to reach jobs in the United States. Some 400 to 600 Mexicans leave rural areas every day, abandoning plots of land too small or too eroded to make a living. They either head for Mexican cities or try to cross illegally into the United States. Many of those who try to cross the Arizona desert perish in its punishing heat—scores of bodies are found along the Arizona border each year.

 

I think the only solution is to improve living standards in their home countries, until this is done, I find morally unjustifiable to enforce country borders or to expel them.

 

Obviously no government will intentionally do so, since US enterprises appreciate this low-cost and low-risk workforce, and medias have new scaring "enemies" useful to keep citizen frightened.

 

In Italy it is pretty going in the same way...

[Jim]

My apologies for not getting to this earlier

 

 

Jim' date='

 

I could see that limits based on health could be justified, and possibly reasons of national security.[/quote']

 

 

 

I dont really have a problem with little Chinatowns or Koreatowns popping up.

 

We aren't talking about a few "little" Chinatowns. We are talking about a major shift in demographics that will have nationwide, irreversible political and cultural impacts. What concerns many when they see those Mexican flags, is that you wonder if there is an allegiance to this country. My wife drove by a demonstration in our town and the ratio of Mexican to American flags was 2:1. My daughter played soccer against "Team Mexico" a few weeks ago and I doubt more than a handful of the adults on the team could speak the language.

 

The Irish, for example, kept their culture but they left their country behind. For good. I've seen no scientific polls on the attitudes of these 11-20 million people in our country illegally but the visible signs do not inspire confidence of a desire to assimilate.

 

I've surmised from your posts that you are a business woman. Good management requires that you make conscious decisions about the people you bring into your organization. In all endeavors, people are the most important variable.

 

This major shift in our work force and in political power hasn't been the result of any conscious decisions. After the fact rationalizations notwithstanding, no one actually planned for this to happen but we have probably already reached the point that it is impossible to oppose politically. You feel no moral obligation to run your company with an "open door" policy and I see no need to run the country that way either.

[Jim]

I think the only solution is to improve living standards in their home countries' date=' until this is done, I find morally unjustifiable to enforce country borders or to expel them. [/quote']

 

If you came home today and a destitute family had taken up in your spare bedroom, would it be immoral for you to call the police to remove them? They wouldn't have taken such a drastic step if their situations hadn't been so very desperate.

 

You have housing that would be considered luxurious in many countries only because you were born in a country that provides opportunity for education and advancement. You worked hard to acquire these things but so would these people who had no such opportunities. You might be able to provide 4-5 families with housing if your family just made do in the master bedroom and shared the spare rooms. For that matter, why are you entitled to the master bedroom merely because you are an American?

 

What gives you the right to maintain the integrity of the borders of your home in the face of such suffering?

 

Now let's talk about your car, your business, your computer or any of the other items of personal property the integrity of which you feel the right to maintain.

[Jim]

First' date=' illegal immigrants make up 11% of the prison population. And if overcrowding is the problem then your not making an argument against illegal immigration (who make up a minority of immigrants who come into the country), you're making an argument against any kind of immigration which undermines your later comments stressing the claim that "They broke the law to get into the country and they work illegally".

 

According to this source, there were 946,142 legal immigrants in 2004. Note that 43% of these were "immediate relatives." Ecoli's point is well taken. If we have 11-20 million legals now and we give them citizenship, then we'll have many more down the road.

[cyberquiet]

If you came home today and a destitute family had taken up in your spare bedroom, would it be immoral for you to call the police to remove them? They wouldn't have taken such a drastic step if their situations hadn't been so very desperate.

I would go further and say they have the right to do so. It may seem foolish, but I think it's not more than declaring we have the right to live wastefully and in all the luxury we can afford.

 

You have housing that would be considered luxurious in many countries only because you were born in a country that provides opportunity for education and advancement. You worked hard to acquire these things but so would these people who had no such opportunities.

This is perfectly right, but a lot of people still insist in saying they don't like and don't want to work. In reality I've never seen people working harder than the immigrants who built an house behind mine last summer...

 

You might be able to provide 4-5 families with housing if your family just made do in the master bedroom and shared the spare rooms. For that matter, why are you entitled to the master bedroom merely because you are an American?

I don't live in a supersize American home, but at least 2 families could live confortably in my home. My parents will hardly accept something like that, anyway...

 

I hope it was intentional, but a lot of posters seem to ignore the huge human aspect of this issue....

[Jim]

I don't live in a supersize American home' date=' but at least 2 families could live comfortably in my home. My parents will hardly accept something like that, anyway...

 

I hope it was intentional, but a lot of posters seem to ignore the huge human aspect of this issue....[/quote']

 

I appreciate the intellectual consistency of your position. While I see this in human terms, some boundaries must be maintained both for homes and nations. Even if you owned your own home and were willing to allow another family to live with you, wouldn't you still demand the right to control who comes in and on what basis? You might want to limit how many families come in so that the home does not become uncomfortable. You might be concerned if they stayed so long that they even came to have an interest in your property?

 

This is not an ethnic issue for me. I would have an Indian roll number today if at the turn of the last century my ancestors had not hidden from the Dawes commission census takers. (This was, of course, a very rational act from their point of view but sure did cost me some benefits when I went to college!) I firmly believe that the current American citizenry with all of its diversity "owns" America and has the absolute right to control who comes into the country and on what basis.

 

In making our decision as to who comes in and on what basis, I believe we should consider the impact on the US economy, the suffering that might be alleviated by allowing a particular immigrant group and the ability of that group to "melt" into the American pot. This last element is impacted not only by the tendencies of the group (and, yes, a group that comes from a contiguous country may be less likely to assimilate than groups from Europe, Asia or Africa) but also the numbers we are absorbing.

 

I want all of those factors to be assessed and then for the nation's policy makers to make a decision.