marsh8472 Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Let's say I had a population of some species let's say cockroaches.. and I had a computer that would analyze their dna and compare it to my own. The computer computes a number that tells me how similar my dna is to each of theirs. Anyway, now lets say I keep killing off the cockroaches that resemble my dna the least. Theoretically over time, will I eventually end up with a genetic clone of myself matching my dna perfectly? In which case, my clone evolved from a cockroach. They are given infinite time to turn into a human in the experiment. I've had long discussions about this at other places and we haven't been getting anywhere so if there are any experts in evolution and genetics we could sure use your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drochaid Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 what the hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insane_alien Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 in theory i suppose you could do that although the diagram shown is a bit *ahem* innacurate in all likelyhood. it would also take millions of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzurePhoenix Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 in theory i suppose you could do that although the diagram shown is a bit *ahem* innacurate in all likelyhood. it would also take millions of years. Except that the roach lacks many of the important genes needed to be human. Hell, even vertebrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herpguy Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Why would it evolve into a human? Why not a dinosaur or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzurePhoenix Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Why would it evolve into a human? Why not a dinosaur or something? He's specifically saying that he wants to select select select and select the roaches with the genes closest to his every generation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herpguy Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Then, marsh, I guess what you are saying is very very very very very improbable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphus Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Why would it evolve into a human? Why not a dinosaur or something? Because he's selecting them for human-like characeristics, not dinosaur-like. Of course, I don't really know what that would even mean for a cockroach. Maybe the only way to do it would be to try to "rewind" first, i.e. to evolve it towards something like the latest common ancestor between man and roach, and then do it from there. I don't immediately see any reason that wouldn't work, but I might be missing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsh8472 Posted April 25, 2006 Author Share Posted April 25, 2006 Since I would be killing all species that resemble humans the least then resembling humans the most is what would increases chances for survival. Like selective breeding. Although cockroaches don't resemble humans all that well, with the help of encouraged random mutations in the right directions it could evolve into a human in a similar manner that invertebrates evolved into humans. Are there any genetic barriors that would make this process impossible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skye Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Anyway, now lets say I keep killing off the cockroaches that resemble my dna the least. Theoretically over time, will I eventually end up with a genetic clone of myself matching my dna perfectly? In which case, my clone evolved from a cockroach. Yep, that would be entirely possible. But just because the code is the same doesn't mean it encodes the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsh8472 Posted April 25, 2006 Author Share Posted April 25, 2006 do the counter-arguments found here have any merit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunspot Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Your genetic selective evolution approach may work, but like Sisyphus aluded to, it would probably lead to intermediate things first. As each new species pops up, you would have to do the same procedure. Once you begin to see the evolutionary hierarchy maybe your selection should push it in the needed intermediate direction instead of directly to human. A faster way would require some parallel gene shifting on your part. The DNA of a species is not just the sum of the genes but is also a function of the orderring of those genes. In other words, it a needed gene is in the wrong position its affect may remain latent. One would have to cut it out and put it in a better position so its latency period can be reduced. One can even get fancier still. The ordering of the genes on DNA reflects a certain hydrogen bonding equilibrium. As an analogy, a three carbon alcohol can have the -OH group on a least two different positions leading to slightly different properties. In a similar way the orderring of the genes will impact slightly different chemical properties to the DNA. This can be correlated to hydrogen bonding potential. The idea is to subject the DNA to the needed external equilibrium potential while slicing and dicing the DNA with enzymes. The reformed DNA by being closer in hydrogen bonding potential with also be closer in structural properties. It may not be perfect but could allow one to jump intermediate species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil9327 Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 It would be interesting to see whether humans could evolve into Cockroaches Or would that be devolve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphus Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 There's No Such Thing As Devolve! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Peon Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 Weirdest thread.... ever.... *shivers* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsh8472 Posted April 26, 2006 Author Share Posted April 26, 2006 Think you could change plants into humans the same way? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime-Evil Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 I am not sure the cockroaches would consider this evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonquake Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 do the counter-arguments found here[/url'] have any merit? No, that guy doesn't seem to understand selective breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kedas Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 How are you planning to avoid the interferance of natural selection? (You are not the only one making selections) It is possible that the natural selection compensates your selection. example: 1) a generation 2) you make a selection. 3) in the next generation all those that are closest to the first generation survive and those that are close to your selection die. So you can keep yourself busy for a while Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime-Evil Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 No, that guy doesn't seem to understand selective breeding.Hey. That's nobody's business but the two species involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasori Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 By the original post, I don't believe it's evolution, simply because it's not natural selection. Still, I think that it could be done on the unlimited time frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonquake Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 Hey. That's nobody's business but the two species involved. Wha? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the tree Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 There's No Such Thing As Devolve!There is but it hasn't got anything to do with biology. do the counter-arguments found here have any merit?At least one of them does.That makes very little sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsh8472 Posted April 26, 2006 Author Share Posted April 26, 2006 By the original post, I don't believe it's evolution, simply because it's not natural selection. Still, I think that it could be done on the unlimited time frame. Yup nature is definitly not the one doing the selecting. More like artificial selection. The manner of selection doesn't really matter though. Evolution = change of species over time. That's my definition anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padren Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 It is basically like natural selection because natural selection is based on the critter's ability to survive and reproduce in its environment. Since the environment in this case happens to include a guy with a pair of tweezers and a DNA analyzer playing cockroach god deciding who lives and dies...I'd say its basically the same thing. Still, you could do away with the cockroaches entirely, and just take their DNA...replicate a large batch...hit it with a little radiation to break the chains and let them repair (ie mutate) and then grab the most humanish ones to replicate the next batch from. Then you don't have the pesky problems of if the mid-species die off due to natural incompatabilities. The biggest issue with the selective system you are proposing though, is that the ones you select as having the most humanish DNA may also be the least likely to be fertile, have functional digestive systems, etc. You would to pick a compromise out of the most humanish AND the most healthy, ie, the healthiest kinda-humanish ones. There are a lot of breeds of dogs with chronic health problems, and you are trying to push things a lot farther than dog breeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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