Water Fuel

[[w00t]]

i just saw this video, not sure how old it is but it's pretty cool.

 

http://media.putfile.com/HHO-GAS

[concrete_hed]

thats some pretty funky stuff there. Ive heard of splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen, but not HHO gas. I have heard of a guy in newzealand that also made his motorbike run on this type of gas. he puts some water into a box that has 2 electrodes in it, no battery, just 2 electrodes. He leaves the water in that box for about 20 minutes and when he takes it out of the box, it is still liquid, just that its flamible.

 

But that video is really amazing how it is able to heat things so quickly like that. Cool

[concrete_hed]

read http://www.energyoptions.com/tech/browns.html

 

it is called brown gas (HHO), rather that exploding it implodes. It is made by using electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, and then back again. 1 litre of water makes 1860 litres of HHO (dont ask me how that works but thats what it says in the article).

 

I dont think that this is possible, when u recombine hydrogen and oxygen u get water again, not some HHO gas. If you ask me its bull, unless i see it with my own eyes (not through the tv) then i'll believe it, but i reckon its fake

[YT2095]

erm...

 

and the energy used to Split the water comes from Where exactly?

[DV8 2XL]

The clasic crank idea

[YT2095]

don`t get me wrong, I think his brazing machine is Fantastic! (I wouldn`t mind one myself) it does away entirely with bulky gas bottles that can run out when you least want them to, and present an explosion risk and occupy large amounts of space. his device precludes all these issues.

 

however, this device does NOT run for "Free" or has Any gain over or equal to Unity, don`t be fooled!

 

it`s simply a nice convenient peice of kit any garage would be proud to use/own

[concrete_hed]

Yea, on the documentary i saw about it, they wouldnt reveal how they actually made the fuel. This is probly because its not as clean and green as they say it is. It also mentions in the video that his car funs on a mixture of HHO gas and gasoline. Why not run it fully on HHO gas? there is something they're not tellin us in this video.

[H2SO4]

I know it takes huge amounts of electricity to split water, so how much would it take to run a car or welder? How much H and O can a car battery deliver (13A/h?).

[Neil9327]

I think this is a fake, for the following reasons.

 

What they appear to be saying is that this HHO is the same as water but releases energy when it "burns" (producing water as the products of this reaction). This implies that the HHO has a higher energy state than H2O. I don't see how this is possible, because H can only bind to one thing - another H (Hydrogen gas) or O. So I can't see anything other than water or H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) as a possible chemical here. And no higher energy state.

 

Secondly if the reaction is a "burning" without the need for external oxygen it would not burn it would detonate (like TNT which also does not need oxygen). The chemical reaction of this process would track back down the pipe of the guy's blow torch and "ignite" the entire contents of his HHO in the gas bottle. And he would be sent to meet his maker no doubt.

The reason this does not happen with ordinary gas torches is that there is a requirement for oxygen to burn the gas, and this is lacking inside the gas bottle.

 

Indeed to prove a point, if you put a match to it, TNT will burn with a smokey flame in a reaction with oxygen without detonating, because the temperature/pressure required for oxygen combustion is much lower than that required for detonation.

Of course it does require some guts to be the person who goes to light it

 

 

On a related point, does anyone know of a reaction where hydrogen and carbon dioxide can be combined (with a catalyst, heat, and/or pressure) to produce a simple hydrocarbon?

[DV8 2XL]

The Fischer-Tropsch process is a catalyzed chemical reaction in which carbon monoxide and hydrogen are converted into liquid hydrocarbons of various forms. Typical catalysts used are based on iron and cobalt. The principal purpose of this process is to produce a synthetic petroleum substitute for use as synthetic lubrication oil or as synthetic fuel.

 

Methanol can be cheaply fabricated from hydrogen electrolyzed from water and atmospheric carbon dioxide. Johnson Matthey Catalysts invented the Low Pressure Methanol (LPM) process in the 1960s and is now used to manufacture over 60% of the world’s methanol.

[woelen]

This is all sheer nonsense. Electrolysis of water requires a lot of electrical energy. If you wanted a 50L tank, full of fuel, and you wanted to use water for that, then that would require 300 days of elctrolysis at a current of 10A (which is quite a lot already). Even, using 100 cells in a series-circuit, that still would take a full 3 days of electrolysis for a full tank. So, the story of 20 minutes of electrolysing, making the water into a flammable liquid is pure bullshit.

[DV8 2XL]

No question woelen. That's why it's called 'Brown gas'

[YT2095]

I`m surprised that No-One picked up on the part where it didn`t burn his fingers in the flame but melted/cut through metals.

 

as a Chemist (but applies equaly to someone with a Brain) would see this a clear Hoax in part also.

(note also that even the OP doesn`t even know how old it is, and so it May well be April 1`st!)

 

I don`t agree that to create such a flame instantly is impossible though and would take days, litre of gas per second wouldn`t be all that hard to acheive with sufficient energy.

I don`t think it`s the answer to the "fossil Fuel" issue though, as I pointed out in my 1`st post, that Juice MUST come from somewhere in the 1`st place

[doG]

Denny Klein does appear to be a real individual so the Fox News Story is not faked as I myself assumed. Googling Denny Klein gets quite a few relevant hits...

[woelen]

I don`t agree that to create such a flame instantly is impossible though and would take days, litre of gas per second wouldn`t be all that hard to acheive with sufficient energy.

Of course, making such a flame is not impossible. You could even make much larger flames, but making a liter of gas per second requires an enormous amount of energy.

 

Just a small computation:

At room temp. one mol of a gas takes up approximately 22.4 liters of volume. So, we need to make 0.045 mol of gas per second. For each mol of gas, two electrons are needed (H goes from oxidation state +1 to oxidation state 0). So, we need to make 0.09 mol of electrons per second. Now compared to current. 1 mol of electrons is approximately 96485 Coulomb of charge. A current of 1 A produces 1 Coulomb of charge per second. So, we need a current of 0.09*96485 A to make 0.09 mol of electrons per second. That is almost 9000 A!!! Of course, you could make a lot of cells in series, but still, making 1 liter of gas per second requires a LOT of power. This can be done on an industrial level, but certainly not at home. So, making a car, working on water and electricity, which is fully charged in let's say an hour from a simple wall-outlet, simply is not possible. Anyway, I do not believe in hydrogen-powered cars at all, where the hydrogen is from a home-setup. Maybe in the future we will have hydrogen-powered cars, but the hydrogen will not be produced at home.

[doG]

Electrolysis of water requires a lot of electrical energy.

What is the energy required to convert HOH to HHO vs splitting H20 into H and O?

[woelen]

Your question is meaningless, because HHO does not exist. Water is not split into H and O, but in H2 and O2. Splitting of water must be done electrochemically.

 

Electrolysis of an acidic aqueous solution at least requires 1.23 volts for formation of hydrogen and oxygen, in practice a little more (due to resistive losses, and overpotential at the electrodes).

 

So, using Faradays constant, and the current through the electrolysis cell, you can compute the minimum amount of electrical energy needed to make a mol of H2 (and half a mol of O2). If you perform the calculation, you'll find that you need at least appr. 250 kJ/mol of energy. In practice this will be higher. A very efficient cell may require 300 kJ/mol, practical cells probably will be closer to 500 kJ/mol.

[doG]

Your question is meaningless, because HHO does not exist.

Your claim is at odds with the Journal of Chemical Physics then considering this article on Photodissociation of water where the statement is made, "...and the strong effect of out-of-plane molecular rotations (K>0) on the dynamics at near linear HOH and HHO geometries...."

 

I am not a chemist or physicist so I cannot claim that it does or does not exist but I wonder why the two chemists that published this article would reference this structure if it doesn't exist.

[woelen]

HHO does not exist as a compound, which can be stored macroscopically, in a bottle, like a liquid, a gas, or a solid.

 

ANY compound can be made nowadays, by arranging individual atoms. Ayoms can be placed in an inert ultra-cold matrix, and in this way, very strange compounds could be made at picogram quantities. But as soon as temperature rises, or the concentration of the strange compound becomes higher than a few pMol per liter, then the compound decomposes already. This is fundamental research, which can be quite useful. It gives insight in the chemical and physical properties of the elements around us, and who knows what interesting applications may appear in the future.

 

In reaction mechanisms, also transient compounds may exist. Some redox reactions are working through the hydroxyl radical, which has formula HO. But this radical only has fleeting existence. It is not possible to have a bottle of hydroxyl around. This compound can be formed, but will react with anything around it in nanoseconds. So, it might well be possible that a compound HHO is formed as reaction intermediate, but also this compound will be VERY shortlived (picoseconds, femtoseconds??). From a practical point of view, HHO does not exist.

[doG]

So you are saying that this man and his company are defrauding people with their Model 1500 Aquygen™ Gas Generator?

[H2SO4]

it just seems you cant go on national television and get away with saing something liek this.

 

EDIT: merged two posts

 

From their website " This unique gas is infinitely stable until it comes in contact with a select target media. Then it sublimates, causing a molecular surface exchange of certain elements, reacting with such excitation as to cause temperatures of up to 10,000° F, the temperature of our Sun's surface, which is currently the limits of our ability to measure."

 

 

This does not make sense. Sublimation? Ok sublimation from a gas to a.....gas.

[woelen]

As H2SO4 already mentions, the sentence alone on that website is sheer nonsense. Throw in some buzzing words, and the less-informed people give it some authority. In reality: crap, not of any use.

If this really were such a breakthrough, then every household would have such a device already.

[doG]

All I'm saying is that they are already taking people's money for these machines and you are claiming fraud. I'm just wondering why the guy hasn't been arrested yet....

[YT2095]

actualy I rem last year seeing a fireplace for a house (Very Expensive) in my Popular Science magazine, that ran on Water and the Hydrogen from it.

it was indeed electrical, but the actual Fire was the Hydrogen from the electrolytic process.

 

if it used 2Kw of electricity and output 1Kw as fire heat, it`s still a heater (with great novelty/Geek value), and I`m fairly sure the electrolytic process is a little better than the 50% I outlined.

[doG]

if it used 2Kw of electricity and output 1Kw as fire heat, it`s still a heater (with great novelty/Geek value), and I`m fairly sure the electrolytic process is a little better than the 50% I outlined.

But that's not what he says or claims. His website says you get a H2O Model 1500 Aquygen™ Gas Generator for $6,995 US dollars plus tax and plus shipping FOB from Cleveland, Ohio. This device will allegedly produce 1500 liters of gas per hour at a power consumption of 17 Amp using 220-240 VAC. Supposedly this unit can run continuously on 1 gallon of water for approximately 8 hours and can operate several welding stations at one time. This is also supposedly up to 90% less expensive than acetylene on actual gas cost. I guess so if you can get 12,000 liters of gas from one gallon of water in 8 hours while consuming only 31 KWH of electricity. The current rate on my own power bill is only 8.4¢ per KWH so this quantity of gas would only run me $2.60 = a gallon of water to produce with his machine.

 

Additionally, if this gas can only exist for pico or femto seconds it certainly won't live long enough in the gas distribution system to fuel several welding stations at once. In the U.S., $6,995 is more than enough to qualify for grand theft so why aren;t they on the way to cart him off?