Water Fuel

[concrete_hed]

Speaking of power consumption and electrolysis. Is there some sort of equation for working out how much hydrogen and oxygen you get from a certain amount of power?

[woelen]

Yes, there is, and I did some math already a few posts ago. The key to this is the Faraday number. It relates the number of Coulombs of charge to mols of electrons. 1 mol of electrons is 96485 Coulomb of charge.

 

An electrolytic cell, which splits water in hydrogen and oxygen will take appr. 2V of voltage (redox potential plus overpotential plus resistive effects). In reality, however, it will be closer to 3V than 2V I think. Well, let's say that with this device, 100 cells can be put in series, each having 17 A of current. This is a VERY optimistic estimate, meaning that almost all energy is converted to gas and hardly any energy is converted to heat.

 

Now, you can compute how many coulombs of charge are flowing this way per hour over all cells:

 

currrent * number of seconds in an hour * number of cells: 17 * 3600 * 100

 

This means that 6.120.000 Coulombs of charge per hour are effectively used for making gas.

 

For each molecule of H2 gas and each half molecule of O2 gas, 2 electrons need to be transferred (oxidation state of H goes from +1 to 0, and that of oxygen goes from -2 to 0). So, for one mol of hydrogen you need almost 200000 Coulomb of charge.

 

So, in one hour you can obtain 6120000/200000 mols of hydrogen gas, this means just over 30 mols of hydrogen gas. One mol of gas has a volume of 22 .. 23 liters at normal termperatures, so you can make somewhere between 650 and 700 liters of hydrogen gas per hour (and besides that, half that amount of oxygen gas per hour).

 

In my computation I have idealized a lot of things. In reality, I think that even 50% of this yield cannot be obtained, due to constructional problems, electrical losses, etc. I would believe the claims if they say they produce 300 liters of hydrogen gas per hour, and then still I would call it a very decent job for such a small household machine.

 

I did not do the computations for making of HHO, because that cannot be made like this. HHO simply is non-existent at the macroscopic (time)level. So, any claims in that direction (but I'm not sure whether they claim that) is nonsense.

[bascule]

Yeah, I saw this a few days ago when it was on /. Magnecules? Aquygen? WTF?

 

I think from what I read in the /. comments the guy was proposing an alternative valence model where a single hydrogen atom could bond with both another hydrogen atom and an oxygen atom, and thus give you "H-H-O"

 

So yeah, this is some more "My product works because physics as we know it is wrong!" bullshit

 

I Googled for "magnecules" and it turned up this guy:

 

http://www.magnecules.com/

 

Dr. Ruggero Maria Santilli. He was also mentioned in the /. comments. I guess the work on this "H-H-O generator" thingy is supposedly tied into his research.

[hybrid04]

I watched that clip and initially i thought it was pretty cool but when i first saw it i wondered how much power it took to run. A few days later this thread has developed and it appears im not the only one to think that. To me it seems like a scam. Id be interested for someone to actually contact them directly and see what they have to say. There is a contact section on their website where they allow you to contact them if you want to see a demonstration of their technology.

[Phi for All]

I`m surprised that No-One picked up on the part where it didn`t burn his fingers in the flame but melted/cut through metals.

He didn't put his fingers *in* the flame, he put them around the tip of the torch near the flame to show it didn't heat up like acetylene torches do.

 

Could this simply be a version of Brown's gas that's safer because it's created by the machine and not stored in a tank?

 

Why is this guy submitting his work to all these government agencies if it's all a fraud? I'm with doG, if he's a scammer he's going to go down big time with such a high profile. All it takes is one shop that ponies up the $7K to call him a fraud. He's going so commercial you'd think any holes in his program would get noticed quickly.

 

I really don't like the fact that he supposedly has five PhDs on his staff but says his torch generates "temperatures of up to 10,000° F, the temperature of our Sun's surface, which is currently the limits of our ability to measure." And the sublimation from gas to gas is dodgy.

 

We should ask the guy to join and tell us all about the science behind his invention!

[encipher]

I found this scientific paper on their site:

 

http://hytechapps.com/presentation/linked%20files/Hydro%20Tech/user%20added/Santilli,%20International%20Journal.pdf

 

Haven't read it yet.. but I will get to it tommorow. Looks like it has all the details on the process of making the gas too.

[woelen]

This entire stuff reminds me of a discussion about hydrino on usenet, one year ago. This also is a very special thing with hydrogen, now not in the sense of special compound, but a quantum state, which is even below the ground state of normal hydrogen. So, there would be 'orbitals' below the 1s-orbitals, and hydrino would be hydrogen with electrons in such lower orbitals. Normal hydrogen can be converted to hydrino by electrons falling down to the sub-1s orbitals, releasing large amounts of energy while doing so. The waste would be a very inert form of hydrogen.

 

http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1367-2630/7/1/127/njp5_1_127.html

 

I realize that this is somewhat off-topic, but the type of claims and the type of controversy are quite similar, that is why I mention it.

 

The other paper, I'll place in a dutch forum, dedicated to chemistry, where a lot of PhD's and other professionals in the field are active. I'll see what they think of it.

[Phi for All]

I watched that clip and initially i thought it was pretty cool but when i first saw it i wondered how much power it took to run. A few days later this thread has developed and it appears im not the only one to think that. To me it seems like a scam. Id be interested for someone to actually contact them directly and see what they have to say. There is a contact section on their website where they allow you to contact them if you want to see a demonstration of their technology.

I couldn't get their demonstration video to play on either IE or Firefox.

 

As for the power ratios, how successful could they be if they sold even one torch system to a metal shop and it failed to yield an efficient result? One complaint that it took too much electricity for electrolysis and it would start the collapse of their business.

 

I'm going to fill out their contact form today and ask them to join SFN and explain their science to us.

[encipher]

If hydrino really exists, and the electrons in a hydrogen atom are at a lower energy level... would it mean that HHO gas is possible.. because hydrogen wouldnt need to give up its electron to acheive a lower energy state.. because it is already low.. mabe allowing it to accept an electron perhaps ? Hmm.. very intresting stuff .. mabe I'm way off =\

[woelen]

There is a really big problem with hydrino and that is that according to quantum mechanics such a compound cannot exist. If you solve the quantum mechanical equations for a single hydrogen atom, then you'll find that the lowest possible energy state for the proton/electron system is that state, with the electron in a 1s orbital. Hydrino would be hydrogen with an electron in an even lower energy state. If hydrine really exists, then we need to reconsider the theory of quantum mechanics and then one of the foundations of modern physics would be shaking. So, this has very far-reaching consequences and that is why quite some effort is put in research on hydrino. Also in the Netherlands at the University of Delft some research is done on the subject.

 

Indeed all this is VERY interesting stuff. Search in Internet and you'll find loads of info on the subject. Be careful though, there also is a lot of pseudo-scientific crap among the publications.

 

There is not a direct relation between hydrino and HHO besides the involvement of the element hydrogen. HHO is explained in terms of 'normal' states and does not need to refer to states, which are forbidden by quantum mechanics.

[encipher]

I don't think that the bond in HHO are standard covanent.. In the Document it claims that the structure of HHO is (H x H)-O

were the 'x' is a magnecular bond and that its caused by a change of the electric polarization of the water caused by their electrolzing box. They later state that the hydrogen atoms are polarized. Because the H atoms cannot remain polarized, the only 'solution' to that, they state, is for them to have the H atoms bond with opposing magnetic polarities.

 

 

 

This polarization is also why the guy could apparently burn holes instantly through bricks.. "polarized H-atoms cause an induced polarization of the orbitals of the atoms of the brick, their consequential attraction to the polarized H atoms, and the latter rapid penetration within the deep layers of the brick structure". Now my question, is if that is true, how can it burn 'clean' .. why wouldnt a reaction occur.. and they say this instantaneous burning is because of the hydrogen.. but isnt the heat a product of the combustion of the gas?

 

 

 

Check out page fourteen on that link i posted

 

http://hytechapps.com/presentation/linked%20files/Hydro%20Tech/user%20added/Santilli,%20International%20Journal.pdf

 

 

They say a sample of HHO gas is readily avaiable for free, to anyone who wishes to check it out.

[Phi for All]

HHO sounds like laughter to me, and I hope this guy isn't joking. Would HHO technically be called hydrogen hydroxide?

[encipher]

Yup, and so would normal water.. Hydrogen Hydroxide.. Dihydrogen Monoxide.. etc..

 

check out this site:

 

http://www.dhmo.org =D

[insane_alien]

HHO sounds like laughter to me, and I hope this guy isn't joking. Would HHO technically be called hydrogen hydroxide?

 

Hydrogen Hydroxide is the IUPAC name for water. Oxygen Superhydride maybe. if it exists at all, which i doubt. it would mean the centre hydrogen either has 3 bonds or the oxygen is a radical and the centre hydrogen has 2.

either way, if this compound was formed it would be so unstable, it would break apart and rearange into water on the order of a few femto seconds.

[Phi for All]

Yup' date=' and so would normal water.. Hydrogen Hydroxide.. Dihydrogen Monoxide.. etc..

 

check out this site:

 

http://www.dhmo.org =D[/quote']That's pretty funny. I wonder how much money they raise annually? Do people feel silly when they eventually "get it"?

 

"Excessive ingestion [of DHMO] produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects." LOL

[insane_alien]

That's pretty funny. I wonder how much money they raise annually? Do people feel silly when they eventually "get it"?

 

"Excessive ingestion [of DHMO] produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects." LOL

 

The funniest thing is that most of the information is perfectly accurate. its just the wording and the complete ignorance of the good aspects

[woelen]

HHO sounds like laughter to me, and I hope this guy isn't joking. Would HHO technically be called hydrogen hydroxide?

No, HHO is (if it exists) something really different from water. The latter you indeed could call hydrogen hydroxide, or dihydrogen monoxide.

 

The structure of HHO is something really different. It has both H-atoms attached to each other (with some very special, up to now, unknown type of bond), while plain water has an H-O-H structure.

 

According to the paper, the structure of HHO is (HxH)=O, where the oxygen is double bonded to the (HxH) entity. Here, the double bond is the well-known bond type, which is very common for oxygen (e.g. in many organics, such as H2C=O, CH3C(=O)OH, but also in many inorganic compounds, such as SO2). Here (HxH) is the special thing, with x representing a completely new type of bond and (HxH) acting as a kind of cluster, which as a whole can bond to other atoms in the standard way and apparently is divalent.

 

I'm not really sure anymore whether this is total crap and fraud or not. I also discussed this subject on a dutch chemistry forum and one of those members told me that the article in the meantime is accepted, and published in a well-known peer-reviewed journal. Here is the link to the abstract:

 

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2005.11.006

 

This is an article in one of the journals of Elsevier/ScienceDirect.

 

As I stated before, I did my computations on electrolysis to H2 and O2 and yes, then the claims for 1500 liter of gas per hour really are crap and fraudulent, but if this (HxH)=O compound really exists, then things may turn out different, because the underlying mechanisms for formation of this compound are totally different from the underlying mechanisms of normal splitting into hydrogen and oxygen.

[raivo]

This abstract does not seem very scientific. It looks as if authors want to prove that substance they were talking about is something different of common water and there is very litle info on actual properties of this substance. In place of short description how it is made and separated we will find just that samples are available.

 

Maybe this is not fake but bunch of enchancements to already known things. There are gas generators that decompose water vapour with heat (incadescent chrome-nickel wire will do this). This way can much greater volumes of combustible gas made than with electrolysis. Maybe they just combined this with electrolysis and added some minor discoveries with high energy magnetic fields? Is new form of water actually needed to explain these results?

 

Lets wait and see.

[jdurg]

But the thing is, how useful is this "new substance" if the energy it takes to create it is greater than the energy it gives off when combusted? That's the whole reason that fusion power hasn't come of use yet. It takes a GREAT deal more energy to produce it than you can actually harness out of it. I don't know about you, but I'm NOT going to be putting in 10,000 kw of energy into something in order to get 9,000 kw of energy out of it.

[doG]

But the thing is, how useful is this "new substance" if the energy it takes to create it is greater than the energy it gives off when combusted? That's the whole reason that fusion power hasn't come of use yet. It takes a GREAT deal more energy to produce it than you can actually harness out of it. I don't know about you, but I'm NOT going to be putting in 10,000 kw of energy into something in order to get 9,000 kw of energy out of it.

There are no over-unity forms of energy so you never get out more than what goes in.

 

With this substance you effectively get to store electrical energy in a combustible form. At this point we don't know how efficient or inefficient it is since the available data is pretty sparse. If real though, it would allow you to fill your gas tank from an electrical outlet instead of a hose, something that's not currently practical. For welding it could be extremely useful since now you can only use electrical current to weld things that are conductive. If real, it has some very useful applications....

[cloakndagger]

Brown's gas differs from Aquygen (HHO) atomically, not chemically. The binding is magnetic, not the traditional covalent bond that you're used to. They refer to the resulting gas as "magnecules"

 

Everyone is partly right. You can't produce liters of the stuf in a few minutes, nor would you want to. Check your notes from history class and look under "Hindenburg" That's also why the gas is produced on demand rather than shipped in tanks (that and the weird magnetic properties make it bond to the tank-in theory- and things get messy).

 

I'm not a chemist, physisist or engineer, I work in an office and if I get caught in this thread I'll get fired. I'll check back in a few days to answer questions.

[woelen]

But the thing is, how useful is this "new substance" if the energy it takes to create it is greater than the energy it gives off when combusted? That's the whole reason that fusion power hasn't come of use yet. It takes a GREAT deal more energy to produce it than you can actually harness out of it. I don't know about you, but I'm NOT going to be putting in 10,000 kw of energy into something in order to get 9,000 kw of energy out of it.

The usefulness of this stuff is one thing and if it is useful, then that would be very nice. Any conversion of energy from one form to another form is accompanied with losses, as you already concluded yourself. So, HHO will not be the answer to the oil problem.

 

doG already gave an excellent reply on why HHO could be useful, so I'll not elaborate on that again.

 

For me, it is of a much more far-reaching consequence. If the compound (HxH)=O really exists, then a whole new type of chemical bond is discovered and a really fundamental breakthrough in physics and chemistry is found. If this really is true, then I think that this is of great importance to science as a whole. So, we have the practical thing, but we also have the fundamental scientific thing and the latter in the long run can have much greater consequences than the short-term practical use of this compound.

 

I have no real opinion on this yet, but I'll certainly keep an eye on this the next few months. So I go with raivo and say 'let's wait and see'.

 

Brown's gas differs from Aquygen (HHO) atomically, not chemically.

Could you explain this in more detail? Brown's gas is nothing special or interesting, it is just H2/O2 mix at 2:1 volume ratio, but (HxH)=O apparantly is something completely different. What do you mean with "atomically". For me, compounds are either chemically equivalent, or they are different, and I do not know the concept of atomically different compounds.

[bascule]

So is the idea that the generator operates continuously to recharge the tanks (with HHO gas!) and then you can only use a small amount at a time before exhausting the supply and having to wait for it to refill the tank?

[YT2095]

just an idea and it May not be valid, but I got to thinking about the HHO HOH hohoho merry christmas stuff and how it in ordinary electrolysis, the products are quite simple, Could it be that this gas passes through some sort of Electricaly Charged chamber or Mesh that gives them this particular orientation for a short a while and so the "Flame" burns partly as a Plasma too, like in Plasma Cutters, these get mega hot too.

some sort of Chemical torch/Plasma torch hybrid?

 

just an idea

[woelen]

@bascule: If I read the page of that company, then I think they claim continuous operation of welding stations. With 1 gallon of water, they claim to be able to operate a few welding stations continuously for 8 hours or so, taking 17A of current from a 220/240V wall outlet. If they really can make that claim true, then they have done a good job. But I have my doubts...

 

@YT: If this compound HHO exists, then it certainly is not something with plasma. An entity HHO in fact is kind of 'molecule'. Two atoms of hydrogen together form a magnecule HxH, which in turn bonds to oxygen with two normal chemical bonds. So, we have a molecule, consisting of an oxygen atom and a dihydrogen magnecule. This magecule HxH is something totally different than ordinary H2. But also here, I still have my doubts, but it looks interesting enough (especially from a fundamental scientific point of view) to keep an eye on the next few months.