Water Fuel

[cloakndagger]

Woelen: I'm saying that this isn't a covalent bond (like I said I just work in the office, so...) all I know is that the electrolysis breaks down the covelant bond and somehow magnetizes the molecules so you end up with x parts hho, x parts H and x parts O. The hydrogen and oxygen are burned and the hho (wile combusting slightly) mostly just re-joins everything.

 

"1 gallon runs several torches..." The reason you can run the torch on so little water for so long is because you're using only (and this is a mildy educated guess) about a mL every few minutes.

[Hephaestus]

Since the details on the properties are so sparse, there is no investigation of the properties of the pure substance, or computational modelling of the IR spectra, we can only make judgement upon citation and analysis of the document by other chemists. I'm investigation hydrogen storage, breakdown and formation. Can this "HHO" be stored in a nanoporous material or magnetic trap, thus stabilising its configuration, for investigation?

 

Is it possible to send a sample? Our magnetometer and SQUID would soon tell you whether the molecule is magnetic or not.

[cloakndagger]

Hephestus: I have no idea what you just asked me, but can't I get you guys anything. I'm just a paper-pusher who read some of the notes and like I said I'm not even supposed to be in these threads.

 

Also, someone asked something about the electolysis method (something about a mesh). I've heard the actual material that performs the electrolysis referred to as "plates" The only other thing I know about them is that occasionally they need to be replaced.

[doG]

Is it possible to send a sample? Our magnetometer and SQUID would soon tell you whether the molecule is magnetic or not.

Their science paper says, "Samples of the HHO gas can be obtained at any time by contacting Hydrogen Technology Applications, Inc. at their website www.hytechapps.com."

[Psycho]

Their science paper says, "Samples of the HHO gas can be obtained at any time by contacting Hydrogen Technology Applications, Inc. at their website www.hytechapps.com[/url']."

Someone should get a sample of it, depending on the price, if it notoriously expensive then wait for someone else to do it, but if it is cheap then someone might as well and then just do some tests on it to find its chemical bonding, because if the substance HHO does exist then it must be a new type of bond that is unknown so far.

[lookingon]

Here are links which I found. I look forward to reading the dissection;

 

http://hytechapps.com/index.html

 

http://hytechapps.com/presentation/

 

http://www.i-b-r.org/docs/sanbook.pdf

 

http://www.i-b-r.org/docs/magneh.pdf

[lookingon]

Someone should get a sample of it, depending on the price, if it notoriously expensive then wait for someone else to do it, but if it is cheap then someone might as well and then just do some tests on it to find its chemical bonding, because if the substance HHO does exist then it must be a new type of bond that is unknown so far.

The maker's explanation is vague, but if it's commercially available then we just need to watch the sweep second hand on our watches, not the calendar, to find the answer to the maker's claim.

[hybrid04]

After browsing some of those links in one of them they claim to have overcome the energy barrier which had previously prevented commercialization of electrolysis. If that is correct it could throw off your calculations woolean.

[bascule]

Here's YET ANOTHER GUY claiming YET ANOTHER METHOD of producing energy via electrolysis. He claims he can "fracture" water molecules and by doing so it takes less energy than electrolysis normally would. His claims are 3 units of energy output for every 1 unit of energy input.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3333992194168790800

 

Did I mention he's an engineer with no scientific background? And he claims his device harnesses ZERO POINT ENERGY? A friend of his claims that he has a contract with NASA, even though NASA denies all claims that's true. And Arabs are worried that his offer of free energy will bankrupt the world's oil suppliers, so he needs to be really secretive about it!

[Phi for All]

And he claims his device harnesses ZERO POINT ENERGY?

It was the theoretical physicist he hired that mentioned ZPE, and he said it *acts* like it, which is a really strange comment.

A friend of his claims that he has a contract with NASA, even though NASA denies all claims that's true.

*IF* he had a NASA contract, I'm sure it was invalidated as soon as he mentioned it in his video.

And Arabs are worried that his offer of free energy will bankrupt the world's oil suppliers, so he needs to be really secretive about it!

Oh, those Arabs, so dark and sinister and... oily. Their $1Bn offer has been withdrawn since this video came out and the whole world now knows the combination to his keypad security system is 14752.

[LayPerson]

Good morning SFN members. I'm not a scientist, engineer, chemist but a lay person who is very interested in this topic. I offer for your consideration the patent information for Klein's device. I'll be very interested in your views.

 

His patent application number is: 20060075683 and can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/np2hn from the USPTO search function located at:

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html

 

Hope I have made some contribution

[Rocket Man]

this is another patent for a welding device, filed by Dennis Klein,

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=6,689,259

it doesnt explain the hho gas though

 

i was wondering, could hydrogen potentially have a negative charge?

it would still have a noble gas orbitals.

 

i also read somewhere that H3O ions have been detected in common water in quanties in the order of parts per trillion. i would expect these ions to have quite a lot of excess energy.

 

i think the reaction of hho is self sustaining, but requires a catalyst to reach high temperatures, i'm probably wrong.

however, consevation of energy would say, this is faked.

just because theres a patent doesnt mean it works, i've seen patents for gravity produced by static electricity in high voltage capacitors.

 

as for a cold nossle, a flame from a propane aerosol doesnt light back to the nossle, the flame front has a maximum speed which is exceeded by the propane jet at the nossle, so the nossle stays cold.

[encipher]

The H3O+ ion is in all water, commonly known as the hydronium ion. It is what is measured when the PH of a solution is calculated. It is what gives solutions its acidity, as opposed to OH- which gives alkalinity. Hydronium is just a water molecule with an extra H+ ion, just like OH- is a water molecule missing and H+ ion. Acids in water give off H+ ions which bond with the water molecules to form hydronium, since H+ cannot exist in a solution on its own AFAIK. When you see [H+] its a common 'abbreviation' of the actual hydronium ion.

[woelen]

I can add to the questions of Rocket Man that hydrogen indeed can have a negative charge on it. Such an ion, written as H(-), is called hydride. Hydrides can be purchased commercially, albeit not by the general public in most countries. Some examples of ionic hydrides are NaH, CaH2. These are very reactive compounds, which react with water, giving hydrogen gas and hydroxide ion, OH(-):

 

H(-) + H2O --> H2 + OH(-)

[bob000555]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen_flame

Wouldn't HHO and H2O be the same thing?

[Phi for All]

bob000555, his patent was posted and it's bearing discussed earlier in the thread. Your question about HHO and H20 was also answered earlier in the thread.

[bob000555]

http://digg.com/technology/Water_Fuel_-_HHO_Gas

an intresting thing in it :

" by hammerattack on 5/14/06

+ 75 diggs Not only did I take chemistry, I passed it. Apparently, you missed the chapter on isomer forms of water.

 

HHO and H2O aren't the same thing. In an H20 (water) molecule, the hydrogen atoms are attached to the central oxygen atom, and both are at about a 104°ree; angle. The isomer form HHO has two hydrogens bonded in series with an oxygen atom capped to one hydrogen all in a line. This molecular configuration is actually very unstable under high pressure or temperature. When compressed or heated, the molecule shatters, then chemically recombines to the more stable H20 isomer.

 

Now, I believe you were belittling others about their ignorance of chemistry?"

[Phi for All]

bob000555, this info was covered in post #42. Please read the whole thread.

[bascule]

bob000555, this info was covered in post #42. Please read the whole thread.

 

And actually, that's what I thought it was at first, but that information is not what HHO is alleged to be. It's supposed to be a "magnecule" where the hydrogen atoms have a unique bond which doesn't match any existing valence model.

[lethalfang]

H2O, HHO, HOH, whatever.

The fact is, water is the lowest energy of them all, that means it is thermodynamically impossible to use it as a fuel.

What's he saying? He converts H2O to something else, and then generates H2O as waste? That means there is a net of zero energy output, and that's not speaking of the energy loss in converting H2O to that "something else."

[doG]

What's he saying? He converts H2O to something else, and then generates H2O as waste?

Yes. I think he's basically claiming that he is storing energy in water by converting it to a supposed HHO magnecule using some new electrolysis method and this substance creates H2O when burned....

[Nashyboyo]

here's some speculation

 

what if his technology consists of an electrical current which stabilises the highly negative HHO molecules. that would favour its formation and maintain its existence as a higher (than H20) energy compound.

[woelen]

All of the latter posters: read the article. It explains what happens, so there is no need for speculation at all. Whether that explanation in the article is true or not, is yet to be determined, but there is an explanation.

I mentioned this whole stuff on a Dutch chemistry forum, and a few students are going to do the experiments and see if they can reproduce it. They can use this research as their final research for passing their studies. So, they have the time and the resources to repeat things. Let's wait what will be the outcome.

[bascule]

woelen, do you know anything about Dr. Ruggero Maria Santilli? It seems the principles behind this thing are based on his research...

 

http://magnegas.com/

 

I mean, does he have any papers? Has he been peer reviewed?

[lethalfang]

here's some speculation

 

what if his technology consists of an electrical current which stabilises the highly negative HHO molecules. that would favour its formation and maintain its existence as a higher (than H20) energy compound.

 

That's not the point.

The point is free energy, work, and thernodynamics.

If you begin with water as a fuel, and ends with water as a waste, there is no friggin' way any energy can be extracted for work.

Water can only be considered as a fuel if and only if you end up with a waste that is of lower energy than water. Unfortunately (as far as fueling is concerned), water is the lowest energy molecule you can make out of hydrogen and oxygen atoms, thus, water as a fuel is an impossible prospect.

Fusion creates energy, because 2 hydrogen atoms combine to make one helium atom, and helium is of lower energy than hydrogen, hence work can be extracted. The problem is that this process is spontaneous only at very high temperature, e.g. hydrogen bomb.