English as the national language of the U.S.A.

[Genecks]

When I was young I would have supported this nationalist tactic.

 

However, I don't see English as the national language of America. The U.S. has never declared a national language, but it has been talked about. I'm thinking since this topic isn't a big issue, Bush will try to stab it the first chance he gets.

 

Some people like to attack topics whenever people aren't talking about them; that way, laws and other things can get passed, while the republics back is turned. One of those "let's pass this into law before people start noticing what we are doing" things.

 

What do all of you think?

[Severian]

I am surprised Bush doesn't want to relable 'English' as 'American' too.

[Genecks]

Well, I believe it was Webster that originally wanted the English in America to be called American English. This was after we booted out the British around 1812 and the Monroe Doctrine was created.

 

For the English to be called American English would not be surprising; however, I believe they don't want this to become a large and controversial issue. This is why I was surprised to hear of it yesterday.

 

For this to spring up all of a sudden without an leaks or other controversy is amazing. I haven't heard anything on CNN or otherwise.

 

I would assume the implied English would be American English.

[Pangloss]

I think the culture of the US is greatly enhanced by the increased use of another language (Spanish) on a regular basis. I don't really want Spanish to supplant English as the predominent language, but I've never really sensed that the Spanish-speaking peoples are trying to accomplish that anyway -- they're not trying to "take over", just assimilate while retaining their own cultural identity.

 

But I digress -- the point I wanted to make here is that in the past we've always had plenty of languages around, but now we have one particular language seeing heavy usage. This changes things a bit, and I think the change is potentially very positive.

 

- More Americans are learning a "foreign" language than ever before

- Latin culture has introduced new elements to the entertainment industry, adding such diverse elements as new musical genres and new movie plot devices (perhaps giving some very tired old formulas a chance to "lie fallow" for a few years, only to be ressurected later?)

- Other immigrants benefit as well because of Americans becoming more accepting of the Latin culture

 

Nobody can see the future of course, and maybe I'm being too politically correct, but it sure seems to me like a good thing.

 

Sorry if this is a little off-subject, but it seemed like a good peripheral point to what you were saying.

[Phi for All]

For this to spring up all of a sudden without an leaks or other controversy is amazing. I haven't heard anything on CNN or otherwise.

Probably part of the Mexican border and illegal immigrants controversy. I've seen an email being circulated that is allegedly what Mexico's immigration laws are, and it specifies that you must be able to speak Spanish.

 

For some reason, this angers many people.

[Pangloss]

This comes, by the way, as the US Senate passes a new immigration reform bill which includes a provision about this subject. The bill states that no person or group can require the United States to provide services in any language other than English.

 

This story at ABC News documents some of the activity on this front over the past few days.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1980874

[abeefaria]

Not making English the official language of the US is a great idea. Next time I get pulled over by the cops, I will speak jibberish and say "no speaka no English." That would make those coppers think twice about pulling me over, haha. I guess the police forces around the country will have to employ linguists so that any perp who doesn't know English will know that the good old US has provided an interpreter for their convenience.

 

Let's make companies write instructions in every language to go with their products.

 

It pleases me to no end that the test to get a driver's license is written in so many languages, since road signs are in all languages.

 

While we are at it, let's change the American flag to a montage of all flags of the world, that would be cool, wouldn't it?

[blackhole123]

It would be nice if Bush would learn to speak the English language before making laws about it...

[Sisyphus]

It would be nice if Bush would learn to speak the English language before making laws about it...

 

No! Let him pass the law and then deport him.

 

Seriously, though, I don't think it's that big of a deal. I mean, I love the English language, and I would be sad to see it fade in importance. It's probably the most nuanced and flexible language ever. And, more importantly, it's obviously the traditional language of the nation. But that happened naturally. What does it mean if so many people are speaking Spanish that you have to pass a law to prevent it?

[Pangloss]

Check out the article I linked above. The position of Senate Democrats was pretty reasonable, I thought.

 

There's certainly nothing in there about excuses for not responding to police inquiries, forcing companies to produce literature in other languages, or changing the American flag.

 

Much less chastising presidents who can't go back and edit their speeches the way we can edit our posts.

[AL]

Next time I get pulled over by the cops, I will speak jibberish and say "no speaka no English." That would make those coppers think twice about pulling me over, haha. I guess the police forces around the country will have to employ linguists so that any perp who doesn't know English will know that the good old US has provided an interpreter for their convenience.

I'm pretty sure that under the fifth, you already are under no obligation to talk to the cops at all.

 

The radar data plus the video they have of you speeding will speak on your behalf.

[JohnB]

There have been similar debates in Oz. It's never gone as far as legislation though.

 

As a citizenship requirement it makes some sense. It's all very well to have interpreters, but how many of them will you have?

 

The main argument heard here concerns emergency calls, how can an emergency operator provide advice and assistance if the person on the other end has no comprehension of basic english? How can the person communicate to the operator the nature of the emergency?

 

We don't have a large segment of the populace speaking a single non English language, so we don't have the same problem. Perhaps the answer for you is to have English as the "Unifying Language" but to effectively be bi-lingual with both English and Spanish.

 

Perhaps it's worthwhile looking at how the european nations operate? Belgium comes to mind. Don't they have three "official" languages?

[Dak]

yup.

 

and as far as calling emergency services, i believe that in all EU countries, 112 puts you through to a foreign-language emergency services telephone centre.

[Pangloss]

George Will made an interesting point in a talk show on Sunday. Apparently the Voting Rights Act is in contradiction with the Immigration Act. Specifically, the immigration laws already state (as of the 1950s?) that you have speak and write English in order to become a citizen. But the Voting Rights Act (1964?) states that you can demand a ballot in your native language.

 

I'm not 100% sure on the specifics there (quoting a talk show is annoying because I can't go back and look it up and make sure I heard it right, etc), but you get the general idea. These kinds of conundrums really annoy "Main Street" Americans when they hear about them. They just seem silly.

 

I don't think this particular case is all that bad, because one could conceivably speak a language without having mastered it to the level that you could fully understand a complicated amendment or proposal on a ballot, which is something that happens all the time (here in Florida we often see tightly contested state constitutional amendments with wording longer than this post, and not only does the wording have to be complete, but the ballot even has to include an *economic* impact statement!).

 

But perhaps he had a point in general about the kinds of conundrums that come up in these issues, and how frustrating it can be to eliminate them in a partisan atmosphere.

[scicop]

I'm pretty sure that under the fifth' date=' you already are under no obligation to talk to the cops at all.

 

The radar data plus the video they have of you speeding will speak on your behalf. [/quote']

 

First of all the notion that a person does not speak english does not stop me from writing a summons or making an arrest, not my problem if they can't understand the law.

 

Second, I probably spend more time verifying the non-english speaking persons identity, especially resident status. In new york, usually an alien's status is printed on their driver's license i.e. "temporary vistor, and date of visa expiration". They BETTER have their visa on their person or that's, or a trip down to the station house for verification by DHS.

 

Also, I'm more prone to ticketing a non-english speaking person since they probably speak english and don't have to courtesy to attempt to communicate with me. Moreover, this is the USA, a government founded with the english language, so if a person is in possession of a US driver's licenses, obviously they had to have learned some english to pass the drivers test.

 

So, speaking jibberish with me, probably will result in at least a ticket, or a trip down to the station house!!

 

English should be the national lanuage..and if its not, I have the choice to make NO accomodations to ignorant morons.

[Jim]

Anecdotally, this weekend my daughter's soccer team won second place in a tournament. The name chosen by the winner? "Team Mexico" The colors worn by the team? The national colors of Mexico. Number of the 30 or so adults and kids I heard on the side lines speak English: less than 5. Number of times they spoke english to each other: 0.

 

I don't see a problem in taking symbolic and meaningful steps to promote English as the "national language", although we should help transition lawful American citizens to help them learn the language.

[ecoli]

I agree that we should perserve English as the national language.

 

However, we have to be reasonable in enforcing this law. Obviously, we should expect a senior citizen immigrant to have to learn english, it's just not reasonable. Children and young adults, on the other hand, should have to learn it.

[Sisyphus]

Did immigrants always have to learn the English language if they wanted citizenship? I mean coming through Ellis Island and stuff. I don't think so, and yet assimilation has never been a problem. A minority of my direct ancestors spoke a word of English when they arrived in this country, yet all of their children became fluent. How is this different?

[Pangloss]

As I understand it the requirement to learn English dates back to the 19th century. It was modified to include written capability in 1948. This is just off the top of my head, though.

[Jim]

Did immigrants always have to learn the English language if they wanted citizenship? I mean coming through Ellis Island and stuff. I don't think so, and yet assimilation has never been a problem. A minority of my direct ancestors spoke a word of English when they arrived in this country, yet all of their children became fluent. How is this different?

 

 

The problem is that Mexico is a continguous country and there is not nearly the pressure to assimulate or to, like Cortez, burn their ships when they come to the New World.

 

It's hard to ahve an objective measure of assimiliation but living in Oklahoma, I'm not sensing an immediate need to assimilate. What I'm seeing is this group flexing its power waving mexican flags, calling their soccer team, "Team Mexico" and wearing the national colors of Mexico. Sure this is anecdotal but how do you measure this issue?

[Sisyphus]

Yeah, and there are still plenty of thriving ethnic neighborhoods here in New York, more than a century after they first appeared. I see no problem with that, either. I don't think assimilation always means abandoning the old culture, just adapting to survival within the new one. Maybe it's just because I live so far from the Mexican border, but I don't see how being a contiguous country really changes much, or how the current wave of immigration is really that different from all the previous ones.

[Jim]

Yeah, and there are still plenty of thriving ethnic neighborhoods here in New York, more than a century after they first appeared. I see no problem with that, either. I don't think assimilation always means abandoning the old culture, just adapting to survival within the new one. Maybe it's just because I live so far from the Mexican border, but I don't see how being a contiguous country really changes much, or how the current wave of immigration is really that different from all the previous ones.

 

Previous waves were at times driven by limited discreet events (e.g. potato famine, Vietnamese war). In all cases, because the countries of origin was separated by an ocean, the connection to that country was severed although the culture remains. The United States determined kit needed the immigrants and determined to let them come in. Neither of us was alive back in those days but, I suspect, having crossed the ocean the entire notion was to become Americans. Irish Americans, etc, but Americans. There was a commitment to this country not a foreign power.

 

None of these waves threatened to become political self-sustaining. None were illegal.

 

As I've posted before, the Irish were motivated by the potato famine and per the 1850 census almost a million US citizens had been born in Ireland. At the peak of the immigration in 1870, as you can see, in most areas of the country, the percentage of Irish was in single digits. With the lessening of immigration, the Country could then go about assimilating this culture into the "melting pot."

 

 

When I see the Mexican flags waved, soccer teams named Team Mexico with the Mexican national colors, I have to wonder whether the objective is to join this Country or to simply benefit economically while retaining allegience to a foreign power. This issue is hardly discussed because to do so (i) alienates a growing swing political block and (ii) risks looking racist.

 

If the United States does not act soon, then it will have lost the moral authority to remove them later. You can't live off of illegals for years and keep them second class citizens, denying their families the right to come to the country. Maybe we are to that point already but it's been a growing source of frustration and I'm at least glad the issue is finally being openly discussed

 

If we do not make the rules clear and enforce them vigorously, be prepared to accept the full 14-20MM illegals plus their families. We are talking about a future fundamentally different from the legal immigration of previous generations.

 

I wouldn't be as concerned if there was a realistic chance of halting the flow and giving the Country a chance to integrate these illegals lawfully into the country. I fear, however, that we are reaching an irreversible critical mass .

[zyncod]

When I see the Mexican flags waved, soccer teams named Team Mexico with the Mexican national colors, I have to wonder whether the objective is to join this Country or to simply benefit economically while retaining allegience to a foreign power.

 

What about people who wear Confederate flags? The whole ideology behind the Confederate flag was the primacy of the South as its own nation. To continue to harp on a team that was really simply paying tribute to their heritage does in fact make you look racist, considering the many, many events in this country that involve carrying around non-US flags. See: St. Patrick's day parades, Puerto Rican day parades, etc, etc, etc.

 

Neither of us was alive back in those days but, I suspect, having crossed the ocean the entire notion was to become Americans. Irish Americans, etc, but Americans. There was a commitment to this country not a foreign power.

 

You know, the illegal immigrant community in New York is enORmous. And New York is quite far away from Mexico. So that kind of demonstrates a desire to become American. Actually, if the illegal immigrants were planning on going home, I don't think that anybody would be all that bothered. The fact is that almost all of these people want to become Americans.

 

And for the love of God, please don't capitalize "country" - America is a place, not a deity.

[Jim]

What about people who wear Confederate flags? The whole ideology behind the Confederate flag was the primacy of the South as its own nation. To continue to harp on a team that was really simply paying tribute to their heritage does in fact make you look racist[/b'], considering the many, many events in this country that involve carrying around non-US flags. See: St. Patrick's day parades, Puerto Rican day parades, etc, etc, etc.

 

 

The phrase "looks racist" is a dodge. Have the guts to say you think I am a racist, if that is what you are implying, or don't say anything at all.

 

You say I "look racist" while ignoring every substantive point that I make regarding the difference between this wave of ILLEGAL immigration and the legal immigration of the past. The primary point I made - listen real close now, this isn't that hard - is that this wave is out of control. This group comes from a contiguous country and has gained almost insurmountable political power and, if we are going to put some limits as we have with EVERY other immigrant group in the past, the time to do so is now.

 

Care to discuss the substance of what I said? Thought not.

 

The only apt analogy you make is to that of the Confederate flag. It really is funny but you don't even realize you supported my point. It is an offensive symbol and I, for one, would never wave such a flag after some 600,000 lives were lost to make this one Nation - The United States of America. It harkens back to a time when America was divided. [if I was of your ilk, I would accuse you of being a confederate flag waiver and "looking like" you support slavery.]

 

Playing the race card makes this issue untouchable and, if thinking people ever came to accept such lazy reflexive slander, loses control of our border. Of course, if that is what you want to do, fine. It's cynical and destructive and requires no thought but it just may work.

 

You know, the illegal immigrant community in New York is enORmous. And New York is quite far away from Mexico. So that kind of demonstrates a desire to become American. Actually, if the illegal immigrants were planning on going home, I don't think that anybody would be all that bothered. The fact is that almost all of these people want to become Americans.

 

You have no idea what is going on in the Southwest yet you make bald claims such as "almost all of these people want to become Americans." I have no idea if this is true and have repeatedly said that I only provide anecdotal evidence because I do not know of any scientific surveys. What is your evidence?

 

And for the love of God, please don't capitalize "country" - America is a place, not a deity.

 

If I Want to Capitalize Every Word I Ever Type For the Rest of My Friggen Life, You Are Just Going To Have To Live With It. Work On Your Reasoning Skills Before You Talk To Me About My Punctuation Habits.

[Pangloss]

Relax, Jim, nobody's calling you a racist.

 

I think the analogy of the Confederate (or less incitingly, Irish, etc) flags actually is pretty reasonable (and interesting). After all, there's a great deal of interpretation and "reading between the lines" going on in the national debate regarding the appearance of Mexican flags at those demonstrations as well. As long as we're reading between the lines, we might as well read between all of 'em.

 

Still, I think you make some interesting points, Jim, and the only criticism I can find that I can directly level is that you may simply be overstating the case. I can't really find any serious flaw with your logic. It could indeed happen that way. Or it may not. I expect we're going to figure that out.