BBC News Chimes in on US Immigration (Gee, Thanks...?)

[swansont]

Um' date=' hello, is there something about the word "illegal" that is hard to understand? Oh no, god forbid we should [i']criminalize[/i] those friendly, law-abiding illegals!

 

Maybe not "illegal," but perhaps "criminal."

 

From Merriam-Webster: decriminalize to remove or reduce the criminal classification or status of; especially : to repeal a strict ban on while keeping under some form of regulation

 

So criminalizing can mean to make penalties more severe. We draw a distinction (in lay usage, at least) between crimes and violations.

 

———

 

Suddenly making immigration violations felonies would appear to be an ex post facto law, if applied to illegals already in this country, and that's unconstitutional.

[Pangloss]

It's only hypocritical if he either supports or enacted border control in the United Kingdom. There's nothing here to suggest that this is the case.

 

I meant the general position itself (as posited by the BBC), not necessarily YT personally.

 

 

So criminalizing can mean to make penalties more severe. We draw a distinction (in lay usage, at least) between crimes and violations.

 

It's an interesting angle, but it feels like a stretch to me. Perhaps because I'm predisposed in that direction now, though. I'll give it some thought.

 

 

Suddenly making immigration violations felonies would appear to be an ex post facto law, if applied to illegals already in this country, and that's unconstitutional.

 

I agree with this point.

[Jim]

Suddenly making immigration violations felonies would appear to be an ex post facto law, if applied to illegals already in this country, and that's unconstitutional.

 

You'd just have to make some aspect of their ongoing conduct a felony - refusing to report to the INS, staying in the country without a valid visa, etc.

[YT2095]

Pangloss,

 

Option A) they`re not doing anything Moraly wrong. and that was my point.

 

as for the Taxes etc... well, a good Many Non "ilegals" fiddle the taxes as much as they can get away with too, and they earn Kazillions times more than these plant pickers.

 

unless one commits a Crime, and by that I mean a Civilian crime like robbery or murder etc... something that endangers others willfully (that sort of thing).

 

I can`t really see the big deal?

[ecoli]

Pangloss' date='

 

Option A) they`re not doing anything Moraly wrong. and that was my point.[/quote']

 

I think morality is too subjective to say anything clear on the matter. One persons morals may accept fellow humans from any country, while another may reject foreigners whose presence may disrupt their own culture.

 

as for the Taxes etc... well, a good Many Non "ilegals" fiddle the taxes as much as they can get away with too, and they earn Kazillions times more than these plant pickers.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

unless one commits a Crime, and by that I mean a Civilian crime like robbery or murder etc... something that endangers others willfully (that sort of thing).

 

I can`t really see the big deal?

 

That's probably because you don't live in the American southwest, where the presence of illegal immigrants has forced hospitals to close (not enough funds to meet demand) schools being overcrowded (and as a result, underfunded).

 

For an article about the full impact of illegal immigrants, financially (at least in the US) read this article: http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscal.html

 

it's a little dated, but still valid.

[YT2095]

ah YES!

I see your point now.

 

Damn them for wanting an Education and Healing for their sick!

[Pangloss]

well, a good Many Non "ilegals" fiddle the taxes as much as they can get away with too, and they earn Kazillions times more than these plant pickers.

 

Well that's two wrongs making a right -- just because legal citizens cheat on their taxes doesn't mean we should allow illegal immigrants to evade them. We make efforts to stop the former, so we should certainly make efforts to stop the latter. Fair is fair.

 

But sure, I agree with much of your sentiment. What I think you may be failing to recognize is that many conservatives (especially the moderate ones like myself) have a valid point as well. The only "big deal" here from my perspective is the BBC's act of demonization of the opposing viewpoint.

 

(Edit: Damn, cross-posted with ecoli. Oh well.)

[Pangloss]

Damn them for wanting an Education and Healing for their sick!

 

That's an unfair generalization of what ecoli said, and I think you owe him an apology (unless you were just joking around). Just because someone recognizes and is concerned about overcrowded hospitals doesn't mean they don't care about healing the sick.

 

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about -- thanks for illustrating perfectly the entire point of this thread.

[cosine]

lol. illegalising crime. I wish we'd do that in britain: there are far too many criminals around here. a few laws illegalising law-breaking ought to do the trick

 

I liked this bit:

 

 

 

wanting to keep the illegal immagrants out is xenophobic?

 

The beeb is usually much better than this. in fact' date=' this article, which is linked to from the one above, seems much better and unbiased (and it appears to have been hundereds of thousands that marched, not millions).

 

[edit]from elsewhere on the bbc site:

 

 

[/edit]

The March on May 1st did have millions of people. Several hundred thousands in the major US cities. (Approximately 400,000 in California and New York each). The article you cited referred to protests in March that were only in California.

[YT2095]

That's an unfair generalization of what ecoli said' date='

and I think you owe him an apology (unless you were just joking around).

 

[b']No, I don`t see it as Unfair, was I joking... well, I wasn`t Exactly serious so you may say 50/50 for that.[/b]

 

Just because someone recognizes and is concerned about overcrowded hospitals doesn't mean they don't care about healing the sick.

 

It certainly DOES mean someone doesn`t care about it, else there would be More hospitals and staff.

 

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about -- thanks for illustrating perfectly the entire point of this thread.

 

Yeah whatever, some little secret "Victory" for You again when you twist things.

 

 

btw, just testing a reply style here, it prolly sucks, it`s just I can`t ever seem to get this quote slicing thing to work propperly?

oh well

[Callipygous]

Damn them for wanting an Education and Healing for their sick!

 

on someone elses hard earned paycheck, since they dont pay taxes.

[Severian]

on someone elses hard earned paycheck, since they dont pay taxes.

 

I think that is more the issue (or should be). If they are illegal, they cannot register so they cannot pay tax.

 

However, I think this is more of an argument for decriminalizing 'illegal' immigrants. If they were not just instantly deported they would pay tax and contribute to the society.

 

For those who would disagree with this, I ask what do you actually have against the immigrants?

[Callipygous]

I think that is more the issue (or should be). If they are illegal' date=' they cannot register so they cannot pay tax.

 

However, I think this is more of an argument for decriminalizing 'illegal' immigrants. If they were not just instantly deported they would pay tax and contribute to the society.

 

For those who would disagree with this, I ask what do you actually have against the immigrants?[/quote']

 

 

funny thing is we already have a system in place for them to register as they are entering the country.

 

so are you suggesting we should no longer screen immigration? forget societal welfare, and just let in anyone?

[Severian]

funny thing is we already have a system in place for them to register as they are entering the country.

 

Well your system clearly doesn't work. I suspect that is because you place severe restrictions on the immigrants which are bad enough to make them want to get around them.

 

so are you suggesting we should no longer screen immigration? forget societal welfare' date=' and just let in anyone?[/quote']

 

Yes, apart from the 'forget social welfare' bit (I have no idea where that came from).

[Callipygous]

Well your system clearly doesn't work.

 

how do you figure? there are plenty of legal immigrants, more everyday. the system works just fine, some people just choose not to use it, and instead make their first act in my country breaking the law. i posted this in another thread and someone decided i was joking, but im all for putting motion sensing automatic machine guns along the border.

 

dont break into my country. we have a lovely system in place that allows you to join us legally and be a contributing member of society instead of being a drain on all the people who are here legally. take the hint.

 

Yes, apart from the 'forget social welfare' bit (I have no idea where that came from).

 

it comes from my logical conclusion that the only reason you would put a restriction on who can or cant enter your country would be because you have decided that certain people would have a negative impact on society. so removing those restictions would be deciding to no longer try to protect society.

[Phi for All]

Let me attempt a different perspective here. We've been lax about enforcing immigration laws, especially on illegals from Mexico, because in the past they have perhaps given more than they've taken away. Many businesses rely on their off-the-books employment and the citizenry has enjoyed the effects of lower costs in restaurants and grocery stores, to name only two. We've been generous but for a greedy reason.

 

But now the flow across the border has become a flood and we're trying to repair the dam. Certainly the illegals want better lives. Certainly there is room for *some* of them here. But because the flow is so heavy in recent years, we can't cope with it and crime is up along with all the other factors you can imagine when a system gets inundated and the benefits get buried under the avalanche of drawbacks (sorry for the mixed water/earth metaphors).

 

I know I'm not really addressing the beeb article and the OP concerns, but there seems to be a misunderstanding of why illegal immigration is a sudden hot topic here in the US.

Yeah whatever,

Valley girl!

some little secret "Victory" for You again

aww c'mon, Pangloss isn't revprez.

when you twist things.

Seems like a normal defense of his position to me.

btw, just testing a reply style here,

testing is good, *most* of the time.

it prolly sucks,

Big time.

it`s just I can`t ever seem to get this quote slicing thing to work propperly?

Do an Edit Post on my post here and see how I've done this (I did this purposely to show you how, not to poke fun or anything). It's all about quote and /quote with brackets, and doing it around the sentences you want to highlight. I use the little "WRAP quote tags around selected text" button above my Reply to Thread window. That's available with Quick Reply as well, I see. If you want to quote different people in the same post just copy / paste their quote, do the WRAP and put =YT2095 (or whoever you're quoting) after Quote in the first bracket.

[YT2095]

on someone elses hard earned paycheck, since they dont pay taxes.

 

I find the implications of that comment Sickeningly Offensive to be frank.

 

ever had the misfortune to see someone injured?

 

did it make you late for work, or maybe you`de just drive past?

did you ask for their passport or country of origin?

did you think twice about Maybe using your PAYED FOR fuel, or mobile phone to get them to a hospital?

did you consider using the First Aid kit in a car or whatever and how much that cost you?

 

Would you send them a Bill for it?

 

that`s mega crass dude, what happened to simple Humanity?

 

here`s another one tho, Would you do the same for a Cat or a Dog you found hurt?

[ecoli]

I think the main point here, is that, humanistically, we would love to accept everyone into our country. We want everyone to have to same rights, freedoms that we in America enjoy.

 

However, immigration comes with it's price, and in order to reduce those ill effects on the citizenry of a country, we have immigration laws, for those who wish to live and work here.

 

By bypassing those laws, especially if many people are bypassing those laws, you are hurting the citzentry of a country, which the laws are supposed to protect.

 

Yes YT, we'd love to ship all the uneducated and sick out of Mexico (and elsewhere) and allow them to use our hospitals and schools, but the burden this puts on the hospitals and schools, and as a result, the taxpayers.

 

Here's a question for you: is it fair to deprive citizens use of their own hospitals, because they are being overrun by illegals?

 

The taxpayers can support a limited amount of illegals, it's true, but when you have as many illegals as we do, there is a price.

 

I think that the only reason why there were so many protestors is because they are relatively uneducated about the economic consequences. Also, the protests were supported by many corporations who benefit from the low wages illegals work at.

 

again, I urge everyone to read this article: http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscal.html

[ecoli]

ever had the misfortune to see someone injured?

 

did it make you late for work' date=' or maybe you`de just drive past?

did you ask for their passport or country of origin?

did you think twice about Maybe using your PAYED FOR fuel, or mobile phone to get them to a hospital?

did you consider using the First Aid kit in a car or whatever and how much that cost you?

 

Would you send them a Bill for it?

 

that`s mega crass dude, what happened to simple Humanity?[/quote']

 

Sacrificing your own economic well-being for the sake of someone else is not 'simple humanity.' It's foolishness.

 

If somebody needs medical attention, I wouldn't recomend you give that person you hospitals, your schools or your job.

 

a word of advice to illegals - don't cut of the hand that feeds you.

[Callipygous]

I find the implications of that comment Sickeningly Offensive to be frank.

 

ever had the misfortune to see someone injured?

 

did it make you late for work' date=' or maybe you`de just drive past?

did you ask for their passport or country of origin?

did you think twice about Maybe using your PAYED FOR fuel, or mobile phone to get them to a hospital?

did you consider using the First Aid kit in a car or whatever and how much that cost you?

 

Would you send them a Bill for it?

 

that`s mega crass dude, what happened to simple Humanity?

 

here`s another one tho, Would you do the same for a Cat or a Dog you found hurt?[/quote']

 

 

now apply that logic from the other side of the argument.

 

they break into the country, they dont pay taxes, so they arent helping people in need. their tax dollars would be more money for schools and hospitals, but they arent paying. they are taking other peoples money, that could be used toward their own healthcare and education, and not contributing anything themselves. why should i want to help such a person?

[YT2095]

Here's a question for you: is it fair to deprive citizens use of their own hospitals' date=' because they are being overrun by illegals?

[/quote']

 

Citizens? Ilegals?

 

technicaly you`re ALL "Ilegals" barring the Native American indians! so don`t ever Try feed me that line, Non of You!

 

no it Isn`t fair to deprive ANYONE in Need of medical attention, "ilegal" or otherwise.

it all falls down after that, hence Triage was implemented.

[Callipygous]

Citizens? Ilegals?

 

technicaly you`re ALL "Ilegals" barring the Native American indians! so don`t ever Try feed me that line' date=' Non of You![/quote']

 

please, name a country that has never been invaded.

thats such a garbage argument. i was born here. i didnt invade, evict, kill, or otherwise wrong anyone.

 

no it Isn`t fair to deprive ANYONE in Need of medical attention, "ilegal" or otherwise.

 

and we dont... you show up the emergency room, you get treated. however, we cant afford to do that for all of the worlds needy people, so were trying to set up a system where we can help the people who can carry at least a little of their own weight, so society as a whole has some benefit and we can maintain our hospitals and schools.

 

your probably right though. we should let our bleeding hearts get the better of us, let in everyone, swamp the schools and hospitals till there is nothing left and no help for anyone.

 

now go ahead and tell me im twisting your words, you may not be saying it directly, but those are the implications of what you want us to do.

[Phi for All]

no it Isn`t fair to deprive ANYONE in Need of medical attention' date=' "ilegal" or otherwise.

it all falls down after that, hence Triage was implemented.[/quote']This point is moot. No one is denied medical treatment if they are brought into a hospital in the US in dire need of it.

 

The real point here is limits. We've reached a limit on how many illegals our system can handle and now the system is in review. There are those who want immigrants to follow procedure and others who want the current lax system to be increased to accomodate the sudden rise in illegal immigration. Taxpayers pay for it either way, but it's easy to see how people want immigrants to work within the system.

 

It's not about closing borders or denying emergency health services. It's about a system that is being overloaded and needs reform.

[YT2095]

so it`s a case of "I`m on the boat now, you can pull the ladder up" then Callipygous?

[Callipygous]

so it`s a case of "I`m on the boat now, you can pull the ladder up" then Callipygous?

 

its a case of "i was born on the damn boat, and while i would like to not make all of you drown, i cant save all of you because my boat will sink and ill die too."