How can we reduce corruption?

[abskebabs]

This is something I 've been wanting to post a discussion for a while so here goes. Corruption is an endemic economic and political problem throughout the world, and can be a major roadblock in the economic deveopment of countries(especialy many in the 3rd world). My questions is what do you think can be done to combat corruption and increase transparency; and why is it some countries have lower levels of corruption than others?

I have pasted a link from to the Corruption perceptions index 2005 from transparency international for your reference.

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2005

[gcol]

My initial reaction may be too simplistc for some, but here goes:

 

Two factors.

 

1. Just human nature, as in, for example "the selfish gene". This is a hardwired factor and apart from global gene manipulation, is unchangeable.

 

2. Nature and nurture, whether by religion, tradition, politics, social structure or culture. These could be changed.

 

Assuming an even distribution of genetic tendencies, I suggest the prevalence of corruption would correlate to the factors in point two. (I am sure there are others. Any random selection of behaviourists will come up with at least twenty others)

[Severian]

We need to bring up our children to understand that corruption is abhorent, and we need to reinforce that in schools. The reason there is so much corruption in our society right now is because people feel they will be disadvantaged if they do not do it. Since everyone else does it, they don't see it as a moral problem.

 

For example, shop owners in the UK pay a special tax which is supposed to cover the amount of money they are expected to not declare in tax. So a butcher for example is expected to eat from his shop without declaring it and the tax he would have had to pay if he sold it to himself is estimated. Also there is an extra charge because it is assumed that he will take money out of the cashbox directly and not declare it.

 

In this sort of atmosphere, where corruption is expected, we should not be surprised to find it going on.

[abskebabs]

We need to bring up our children to understand that corruption is abhorent' date=' and we need to reinforce that in schools. The reason there is so much corruption in our society right now is because people feel they will be disadvantaged if they do not do it. Since everyone else does it, they don't see it as a moral problem.

 

For example, shop owners in the UK pay a special tax which is supposed to cover the amount of money they are [b']expected[/b] to not declare in tax. So a butcher for example is expected to eat from his shop without declaring it and the tax he would have had to pay if he sold it to himself is estimated. Also there is an extra charge because it is assumed that he will take money out of the cashbox directly and not declare it.

 

In this sort of atmosphere, where corruption is expected, we should not be surprised to find it going on.

I can understand both your arguments and I agree both are relevant, but to different extents. I think that red tape, messy legislation and its poor implementation can definitely increase the likelihood of corruption as well as waste money. The point you made and gcol made about how people are brought up I find more contentious, or I feel it needs further development.

 

To illustate this I will compare 2 countries, Italy and Iceland. Both are developed countries in Europe, but one is No1 in transparency international's CPI ranking(Iceland), and the other is No 40. Can you say that the difference between these has a major cause in how children are brought up in the 2 countries? Is there a major part of the culture in Italy, that helps promote corruption(perhaps like how the mafia could be talked about as a "cultural" phenomenon in Sicily)? Could there be a link between how open people are to one another, and could this be a more complex social issue related to the amount of trust ppl can place in one another? For example the scandinavian countries that tend to dominate the transparency rankings also were at the top of rankings of trust.

 

Could religion also have a factor to play, as it was found that in countries with a larger religious populace tend to have a lower degree of trust between ppl? I think good governance can also help lower corruption, as these countries tend to be small, and seem to be efficiently managed.

 

Overall I think for progess, the causes and symptoms of corruption need to be distinguished. I also recognise that a lot of factors will fall into both categories.

[Phi for All]

There are systems in place to deal with the standard types of corruption. I think the most insidious type is the corruption that has gained a legitimate veneer through widespread practice and process. This is mostly political in nature but as mentioned above, there are certain instances where society simply looks the other way. Accounting system disparities that lose trillions of dollars yet continue to be used is just one such corruption.

 

One of the practices I consider corrupt is the way my state of Colorado licences a vehicle. You are required to have a minimum amount of insurance before you can obtain plates for your car but you don't have to *prove* you actually have the insurance. You're allowed to promise you have it by signing off on it. True, the penalty is stiff if you're lying and get in an accident, but it's unbelievable how many uninsured motorists there are here. What I consider corrupt is that the state doesn't want to lose the revenue from licencing, the insurance companies get an extra charge for insuring you against "uninsured motorists", and it's the person who does the right thing that gets screwed.

[Dak]

Corruption is an endemic economic and political problem throughout the world, and can be a major roadblock in the economic deveopment of countries(especialy many in the 3rd world).

 

hmm... i read a theory somewhere that corruption is a vital part of a countries economic development, and that attempting to stamp out corruption in 3rd world countries would effectively stunt their economic growth.

 

Cant quite remember the justification, but i think it was something to do with the increased flow of money caused by corruption being useful to poorly developed economies, or something like that.

 

I'll try to find the article.

[gcol]

I think the danger of quoting examples is that we begin to make case-law, which often has little bearing on underlying principles.

 

I also suggest there is and never will be a global definition of corruption. There is, in the wide definition, moral corruption within business and politics. If there were not, the topic would not be worthy of discussion, so it is a given. Always was and always will be the "selfish gene" factor present in all competitive human activity.

 

In politics and business it is shrugged off with the "oh well, thats the way business and politics are, screw them first before they screw you" reply. Dog eat dog. Even if this attitude is not arrived at by nature and nurture, anyone embarking on a career in either sphere will have to worship that false God or get out and become a hermit.

For those who want to make case-law, the legal profession beckons. No corruption there, surely? (cough cough, splutter choke)

[scicop]

How to end corruption??!! by being the most corrupt and not trusting anyone around you! I call it: "The Mao way of maintaining absolute power"

[abskebabs]

I also suggest there is and never will be a global definition of corruption. There is' date=' in the wide definition, moral corruption within business and politics. If there were not, the topic would not be worthy of discussion, so it is a given. Always was and always will be the "selfish gene" factor present in all competitive human activity.

[/quote']

You make a good point, corruption is a broad topic, consisting of different kinds of activities so it is not easy to define. I apologise for not addressing this, but I will do so now.

 

The corruption which I am talking about could encompass, a public sector employee taking advantage of a loophole in legislation to force a charge on an entrepreneur starting their business. It could be a policeman taking bribes from a criminal. It could also be the siphoning of funds for a major development project(such as in the 3rd world) by public sector employees and politicians.

 

I would not include the financing of political parties by financial companies in such a definition as I feel even though it could be loosely categorised as corruption, it is a different kind of problem, as it is done in the open.

 

My main question, which I feel has not been properly addressed is what makes some countries more transparent than others, and what can be done by countries to reduce corruption? Can we change laws, improve legislation reduce "red tape" and implementation of government policy? I suppose we first need governments that are willing to reform. Does the culture and attitudes of ppl need to change, could ths be quite a long process?

 

To give an example of how red tape helps provide an avenue for corruption; A lorry driver could be driving across a border(whether state or country), but because of some obscure and messy legislation that does not fulfill its purpose; he has to spend time filling dozens of forms to be able to cross the checkpoint. This is a rather simple example, and there are of course good reasons for these checks and balances, but if the system is poorly managed it could be quite detrimental for business. This will cause the driver to be tempted to simply bribe the official at the checkpoint, and in more times than not he/she will.

 

By knowing about this loophole, the government employee may do their best to exploit and make the process and be as unhelpful as they possibly can in the process. My point is when the law allows loopholes like this to exist, it will be thoroughly exploited for personal gain. Sure human nature will remain the same, what we need to is remove the opportunities for corruption in my opinion. Human nature is not the cause of corruption we need to worry about(and not one we can tackle if it is), as even countries with very low corruption are still populated by humans(right? ), to me it seems it is more important how the system is managed.

[gcol]

Abskebabs:[:

 

QUOTE]My main question, which I feel has not been properly addressed is what makes some countries more transparent than others, and what can be done by countries to reduce corruption? Can we change laws, improve legislation reduce "red tape" and implementation of government policy? I suppose we first need governments that are willing to reform. Does the culture and attitudes of ppl need to change, could ths be quite a long process?

 

If the corruption is endemic, or begins within the government, where is the pressure or will to change? Some governments seem to make fine speeches about fighting corruption in others, yet fail to recognise it when they see it in the mirror.

[abskebabs]

If the corruption is endemic, or begins within the government, where is the pressure or will to change? Some governments seem to make fine speeches about fighting corruption in others, yet fail to recognise it when they see it in the mirror.

I see, then the only hope of change is if there is a popular backlash against corrupt political parties by the populace. A recent example of this would be the election victory of Hamas over Fatah in Palestine. Hamas were seen as a more honest party with a better reputation, so they instead were voted in by the ppl. I could name another example too. In India there recently was the formation of a new political party by IIT graduates. This party is radically different from other parties, and has gained a lot of support from the youth and middle class, who usually shy away from the polls.

 

If the established political parties have a reputation for corruption, then this will play into the hands of another if it can keep its reputation squeaky clean. I suppose I have ended up answering my own question, corruption can only be removed when the public are fed up of it, and vote into power a political party committed to remove it. Of course this political party has to be formed by a group quite different and distinguishable from the regular politicians.

[gcol]

Next problem, as I see it, is that inherently corrupt people have an uncanny chameleon-like way of blending into any new background. They will adapt to eventually take advantage of any new regime. They are ultimate political and corporate survivors. The desire to be top-dog at any price is, it seems to me, to be part of the evolutionary survival strategy of the human organism.

 

A rather bleak outlook perhaps. But as I have no academic credentials to back me up, you dont have to believe it, and you can live in hope....

[scicop]

Next problem' date=' as I see it, is that inherently corrupt people have an uncanny chameleon-like way of blending into any new background. They will adapt to eventually take advantage of any new regime. They are ultimate political and corporate survivors. The desire to be top-dog at any price is, it seems to me, to be part of the evolutionary survival strategy of the human organism.

 

A rather bleak outlook perhaps. But as I have no academic credentials to back me up, you dont have to believe it, and you can live in hope....[/quote']

 

dude, you gotta read Jung Chang's biograpy of Mao Zaedong, it definately supports your assessment.

 

While you're at it, read "Mein Kampf" by Adolf Hitler. Sick, corrupt individuals who had it all. Sadly I can never be a dictator, I enjoy sleeping at night too much.

[gcol]

dude' date=' you gotta read Jung Chang's biograpy of Mao Zaedong, it definately supports your assessment.

 

While you're at it, read "Mein Kampf" by Adolf Hitler. Sick, corrupt individuals who had it all. Sadly I can never be a dictator, I enjoy sleeping at night too much.[/quote']

 

I have read quite a bit of Nietsche, I presume it is in a similar vein?