Israel/Palestine

[ecoli]

I belong to another forum focused on this topic. The name of the forum is "Free Palestine," but there are several people who are trying to argue the opposite as well.

 

What sickens me is that people (on both sides) are so busy arguing about who owns the land and who deserves to be there more, that neither side understands that nobody is going anywhere.

 

The Palestinian terrorists/ extreme zionists are so hung up about being the sle occupants of the territory, but, in truth, both sides deserve to be there and both sides are staying.

 

I seem to be one of the few people who realize that on that discussion board.

 

I do not favor a two state solution because I believe that both peoples can live together in peace. And that both people should be able to live on the same land without fearing each other.

 

After all, many other nations are doing this successfully.

 

Can this ever happen? I truly hope so.

[scicop]

You should read works by Thomas L Friedman, especially about the palistine/isreal conflicts. I'm a big fan.

 

I also recommend the "The economist" is also a really good magizine for really good articles on that part of the world. Provides good insight.

[Pangloss]

Well you're probably right, but you can't force people to change their minds. The best you can really do is to create an environment that fosters positive change over time. A two-state solution may be the best avenue to achieve that. After they learn to get along in peace, maybe some day they can "reunify".

 

You're certainly right about the pointlessness of arguing over who owns the land. Documented history goes back, what, 5 or 6 thousand years? Before that, if memory serves, archeology that the caucasian race came in only two varieties: aryan and semetic. The arabs come from the same branch as the jews -- semetic (I think the Iranians are the nearest aryan race (persian)). They can't even be anti-semetic -- it's a non-sequitur. Since THAT history probably dates back TENS of thousands of years, it's kinda silly to argue about a few land disputes in relatively recent history.

[abskebabs]

I have a question, why was the state of Israel formed in the first place, and not a secular state instead comprising of both Arabs, Jews, Druze and other communities. Or am I misunderstanding the influence and power that zionist movements had at that time; especially when using the mass murder of the Holocaust for their own political goals.

 

I was surprised actually, when I read on wikepedia it says;"Since the Holocaust however, Judaism has become overwhelmingly Zionist. Today all of Reform, Conservative and Modern Orthodoxy is staunchly Zionist; and even most Haredi Jews have changed from anti-Zionism (active opposition to Zionism) to non-Zionism (neutrality towards Zionism.) Secular non-Zionist Jewish movements are very rare today."

 

It saddens me when ppl place value in such trivial ideals such as nationalism and any movement that separates ppl from one another:-( . It is the scourge of humanity. Ppl cling on to what divides and separates them, and then they believe that we have fabricated an identity for themselves:rolleyes: !

 

I remember a scene from the English patient related to this, and it still makes me smile:

"Hana carries in a tray. There's OMELETTE on the plate.

HANA

There's a man downstairs. He

brought us eggs.

(shows him the omelette)

He might stay.

THE PATIENT

Why? Can he lay eggs?

HANA

He's Canadian.

THE PATIENT

(brittle)

Why are people always so happy when

they collide with someone from the same

place? What happened in Montreal when

you passed a man in the street - did you

invite him to live with you?

HANA

He needn't disturb you.

THE PATIENT

Me? He can't. I'm already disturbed."

 

It seems the more I learn about history, the more despondent and dejected I sometimes feel about the future. Or maybe I'm just feeling like that now...

[Sisyphus]

Of all the Jews I know (of which there are many - I grew up on Long Island), exactly one of them gives a damn about Zionism, so that's kind of an odd claim to make.

 

As per the OP, I share your view that the ideal solution would be one state, and I believe that this will eventually be possible. However, I think it's pretty clear that that isn't going to work right now, and two truly independent states is probably the best hope for any kind of peace in the anywhere near future. Reunification is always an option later down the road.

[ecoli]

You should read works by Thomas L Friedman' date=' especially about the palistine/isreal conflicts. I'm a big fan.

 

I also recommend the "The economist" is also a really good magizine for really good articles on that part of the world. Provides good insight.[/quote']

 

I'll look into it, thanks.

 

Well you're probably right, but you can't force people to change their minds. The best you can really do is to create an environment that fosters positive change over time.

 

That means education, which means money. Is there a significant movement trying to get his to happen?

 

I have a question, why was the state of Israel formed in the first place, and not a secular state instead comprising of both Arabs, Jews, Druze and other communities. Or am I misunderstanding the influence and power that zionist movements had at that time; especially when using the mass murder of the Holocaust for their own political goals.

 

Israel was formed as a safe haven for Jews because there of the fear of anti-Semetism after the holocaust. And one only has to look at anti-Semetism in the US in the 50's to see that is the truth.

 

To say the zionist were using the holocaust towards a political end is a rather harsh sentiment, however. Afterall, there are at least 22 declared Muslim nations, surely the world can afford 1 Jewish one.

 

And, don't forget that Israel IS a multi-cultrual nation, where all religions are welcome. It is a democracy - everyone, of any religion can vote, and there are even Muslims in the parliment. Arabic is an official language (along with Hebrew and English).

 

It saddens me when ppl place value in such trivial ideals such as nationalism and any movement that separates ppl from one another . It is the scourge of humanity. Ppl cling on to what divides and separates them, and then they believe that we have fabricated an identity for themselvesimages/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img'] !

 

Maintaining cultural identity is not necesarily a bad thing, but only when you refuse to recognize the right for other cultures to exist, does this pose a problem.

 

Of all the Jews I know (of which there are many - I grew up on Long Island), exactly one of them gives a damn about Zionism, so that's kind of an odd claim to make.

 

If you are no longer on Long Island, let me tell you about the large pro-Israel campaigns that are being fostered here. A state of Israel is something that all Jews can identify with, and things like trips to Israel, Israeli-cultural education, etc. are all things being used by Jews to renew youth interest in Judiasm.

 

So yes, the pro-zionist movement is alive in Long Island, and elsewhere, AFAIK, but I don't see it as a bad thing.

 

The US's support of Israel is dependant upon it's support from the domestic Jewish population. And no Jew (no matter what there stance is on Zionism) wants to see fellow Jews die, especially not in the 'Holy Land.'

[Pangloss]

That means education, which means money. Is there a significant movement trying to get his to happen?

 

No, not at the moment, as I understand it (was that your point?). The peace process involved some activities along those lines, but of course that's all on hold now because of Hamas. I have no idea how we could even jump start anything at this point, given the current situation, especially in Gaza.

 

I've been very critical of Israel over the years, and I feel I'm pretty objective on the subject in general, but it's pretty hard not to side with Israel at the moment, and wonder what in the world the Palestinians are thinking. I can sympathize with their frustrations over the years, but that was a giant leap backwards.

[ecoli]

No, not at the moment, as I understand it (was that your point?). The peace process involved some activities along those lines, but of course that's all on hold now because of Hamas. I have no idea how we could even jump start anything at this point, given the current situation, especially in Gaza.

 

I expect it has something to do with Hamas telling people that Israel is the cause of their problems and saying that it's destruction will solve those problems... history shows us that nothing unites a people like a common enemy.

 

I'm not sure for certain, but I'd bet that Hamas used scapegoate tactics to win the election.

 

History also shows that scapegoating inevitably leads to bloodshed, but never solves anything.

[Skye]

Hamas really didn't need to focus on Israel, they could just attack Fatah. Interesting article:

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/02/19/INGMQH9TVQ1.DTL

 

"The polls all said the people's first concern was about corruption, and then the security situation," said Assad. "And they showed that 25 percent of the people cared about religion."

 

He commissioned further internal polling that confirmed his belief that Palestinians who traditionally did not support Hamas would respond to a message emphasizing an end to corruption, a clean and honest government and a strong stand against the Israeli occupation.

 

The party program was toned down -- deleting references to Hamas' charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel and the imposition of Islamic Shariah law.

[abskebabs]

I expect it has something to do with Hamas telling people that Israel is the cause of their problems and saying that it's destruction will solve those problems... history shows us that nothing unites a people like a common enemy.

Although Hamas do advocate the destruction of Israel, their winning the election isn't as simple as just scapegoating Israel for Palestine's problems(although they do that too). Hamas were also seen as a more honest and transparent party, unlike Fatah who were plagued by relatively recent corruption scandals, as Skye has already mentioned....oops:embarass: