Artificial Gravity: Can it be done right?

[mooeypoo]

Hi guys,

 

Again, me and my stories I'm writing a science fiction story, and I do want it to be based on science. Since it's science FICTION, it shouldn't be based only on available science, but also on speculations, or "what if" scenarios, so you're free to speculate or throw ideas.

 

I need to find a way where Artificial Gravity on a vessel orbitting Mars is possible.

 

Remember; this is a science fiction story.. if it means that for this to happen you need to go from the assumption that a new fact was found, feel free. But try to keep it as scientific as possible.

 

It's kind of a .. "what if" excercise...

 

Thanks

 

~moo

[timo]

Use the standard method which iirc was also used in 2001 - Odyssee in space: Make the vessel rotate.

[mooeypoo]

i thought about that, but I have a problem; there is a specific "scene" in which people are looking through the window and are supposed to see the earth. If I make the vessel rotate, the earth will too, and it's.. icki to the eyes and confusing to find your bearings in. I'd much rather not do that..

 

Is it possible to do that without rotation?

 

~moo

[bascule]

Gravity is a lame ass requirement of physical entities. Let the crew be digital. Then they can have "artifical" gravity inside a virtual reality environment.

[Rocket Man]

i heard that a rotating super conductor was used to make a measured drop in gravity, (0.1% or something ridiculous)

i wonder if something similar can be used to "create" gravity

do they really need gravity? gravity often requires vast energy/mass and people can go months in orbit with only mild muscle degeneration

i can also understand your dislike for a rotating vessel, vertical motion has horisontal consequences unless they inhabit outer extremities of a vast counter weighted tethered... thing.

could they be in a decelleration/acceleration phase, i wouldnt mind looking kilometeres below my feet at something so far down depth perception fails.(then again, i dont get vertigo easily)

[mooeypoo]

Gravity is a lame ass requirement of physical entities. Let the crew be digital. Then they can have "artifical" gravity inside a virtual reality environment.

Neat Idea! But.. for another story

 

This story is supposed to take place in our current time. Kind of a "what if the government already has a "starbase"/"ship" orbitting mars, but hid it from the people because of what was found on Mars" Idea.. it has similar concepts to Da Vinci Code, only.. less.. religious-oriented

 

So I need something to make Gravity possible, for the sake of some good scenery I have in mind. If it's impossible to do it without rotation I will sadly drop it, but there's gotta be a way..

 

~moo

[mooeypoo]

do they really need gravity? gravity often requires vast energy/mass and people can go months in orbit with only mild muscle degeneration

Yes, well, for the sake of surprise in the story, yes. I have an idea that my main character finds herself in an unfamiliar place, tries to run away and finds out she can see earth through the window.. that can be put in a good thrilling/surprise scene, but I need to simulate gravity for that...

 

 

What if I say someone found a better way to create energy source? Or.. found an energy source.. would the super-conductor theory be possible to CREATE gravity?

 

Also, another question: What is the gravity of Mars? Similar to earth or lighter? If someone was to walk on the surface, would he feel different?

 

~moo

[timo]

What if I say someone found a better way to create energy source? Or.. found an energy source.. would the super-conductor theory be possible to CREATE gravity?

According to todays physics standards to create gravitational attraction you need mass (energy in a more general form but the resrtiction following will be the same). To create earthlike gravity you need a whole lot of mass - most probably more than you can justify even in a SF novel.

 

Also' date=' another question: What is the gravity of Mars? Similar to earth or lighter? If someone was to walk on the surface, would he feel different?[/quote']

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planets#Within_our_solar_system

Gravitational attraction can be calculated from mass and distance just as on earth if you want it exactly. Short version is: Gravity on mars surface is roughly 40% that of earth.

[insane_alien]

you could maybe have an earth mass black hole in the ship both to provide power and as a gravity source. the super conductor gravity reducing thing couldd be applied to the outside off the ship so stuff doesn't start orbiting the ship or starts flying towards you at 11 kilometers per second.

 

EDIT:P just realised, the black hole would need to be less than earth mass since your closer to the center than here on earth.

[mooeypoo]

Hm...

 

Is there any way you can ENHANCE gravity, or at least the feeling of one? What about pressure? What if the pressure inside a vessel was larger than normal? Would that create a feeling of "different gravity" -- like what happens when on earth we get into water.

 

Or.. am I completely off track here?

 

C'mon.. so many SF novels and movies got artificial gravity, there's GOT to be a way to write down a convincing way of simulating one... help!

 

~moo

[insane_alien]

pressure wouldn't make any difference to the gravity experienced(the effect in water is a result of density and that still wouldn't do much beyond making you float again).

[woelen]

I fully agree with Atheist. Making artificial gravity of a reasonable level simply is impossible. The force of gravity is soooooo weak. On the other hand, it is the long distance force, which determines the global behaviour of the universe.

 

But, here we are in speculation, so we may add some new "physics" . You could tell in your story that mankind has found a way to have mass in a very concentrated form in a hyper-plane, parallel and very close to, but not overlapping with our hyper-plane. In that parallel hyper plane there is a fairly small mass (still millions of tons, but nevertheless, much less than a planet, and achievable with sufficient economic effort) at very high concentration. When this mass is placed correctly in front of your mars-orbiter, then it gives reasonably uniform gravity (e.g. ranging from 0.3 to 0.5 G when going from the back to the front of that orbiter).

 

In fact, what I'm saying here, is not all sheer nonsense, although it is for the most part. But there is a real theory, called "brane" theory. Some flavors are talking about super branes, containing huge masses, whose presence we can only notice by means of their gravitation. Whether this is real or not, remains an open question, it definitely is not established science.

[Guest_Jim*]

you could maybe have an earth mass black hole in the ship both to provide power and as a gravity source.

You couldn't use any thing like that because it sounds like this is not suppose to be known of by the public and that large of a mass would affect Mars's orbit giving it a wobble as it orbits Mars, which could be noticed by people.

[timo]

Magnetic boots on an iron floor? Or better: Boots with iron ... errr ... downsides and and intelligent floor that becomes magnetic (electromagnets) when the boot comes near? Doesn´t have to be iron, btw. I´m pretty sure today´s research in material science already offers better-suited materials.

About the "like what happens when on earth we get into water": Yes, you´re pretty off the track, there. Besides that the effect is not really related to pressure, the best you could get would be removing all the air which -besides from being a bit uncomfortable- might have an effect in the order of maybe a few gramm.

 

Otherwise you could invent some material which restricts gravitons on the same branes as the other forces, hence effectively strenghtening it. It´s utter crap, of course, but you´re on the same level as many other SF movies, then. Plus, you can probably even justify it with a quote from the holy book (Brian Greene, "The elegant universe" ... what book did you think of?) .

 

Guess I´m not too much of a help for you but at least I have some fun writing this

[insane_alien]

You couldn't use any thing like that because it sounds like this is not suppose to be known of by the public and that large of a mass would affect Mars's orbit giving it a wobble as it orbits Mars, which could be noticed by people.

 

See the thing about the superconductor gravity reducer thingumy bob. thats supposed to nullify the field so the external field is nullified or at least incredibly weak.

[Rocket Man]

try the higgs particle.

apparantly it inhabits atoms and gives rise to gravity. what if the station had some sort of energy --> higgs particle converter (much like CERNs antiproton decellerator) to increase the number of higgs particles in the floor.

(now that would feel weird; your feet would feel more gravity than your head. inverse square law, theoretically infinite force at 0 distance assuming no intervention from the uncertainty pricniple.)

 

the higgs particle has never been detected, but a lot of money has gone into it in very large particle accelerators. it is supposed to be the key to mass in some theories.

[Edtharan]

What if the station was created taround a cosmic string? If you get too close to one the gravity would definiylt pull you apart, but if you were carful about the distance might one not get a similar gravity to Earth's? This could also be used to power the station too.

[Rocket Man]

the counter weight and tether suggestion i posted could potentially have the whole system rotating at 1 rotation every 10 seconds.

100m from center, around 30m/s, theres almost earth gravity.

 

at 100m out, you wouldnt feel much wrong unless you knew about it.

also, the slow rotation would make the scene even more eerie.

it would also be fairly simple to have a rotating docking system at the center which you could winch some form of elevator down the tether to the habitat module.

 

docking a platform experiencing gravity can be a real pain and a waste of fuel.

[mooeypoo]

You couldn't use any thing like that because it sounds like this is not suppose to be known of by the public and that large of a mass would affect Mars's orbit giving it a wobble as it orbits Mars, which could be noticed by people.

 

HHmmm.. Well, what if I use instead of an orbitting vessel, a "base" on the surface of mars, and this gravity-device i use to strengthen the gravity - so instead of 40% that of earth's, it actually has something similar to earth's gravity.. should that too be visible and affect Mars?

 

I am such a lamen in physics, my teacher would probably kill me if she knew I forgot most of it

 

Sorry if I ask stupid questions, I'm just trying to figure this out

 

And thanks all for your replies, I'll answer them too, just give me a bit to understand what ideas you're giving here so I can write them correctly

 

~moo

[JohnB]

Firstly, use Zero Point Energy for the power supply, most readers will buy that. Pulling the power straight out of Spacetime sounds really cool.

 

But here is an answer to your problem.

 

Artificial Gravity, Normal Space Drive, Offensive and Defensive weapons, Tractor and Repellor beams all from the magical qualities of "Graviton spin technology".

 

Understanding the basics of GST.

 

1. Gravitons come in three types.

(a) "Clockwise" spinning or "Cool" Gravitons. These can be either naturally or artificially created.

(b) "Anti-Clockwise" spinning or "Weird" Gravitons. These are almost exclusively artificially created.

© "Non spinning" or "Impossible" Gravitons. They are gravitationally inert. These do not occur in nature.

 

[These are named for the comments of the lead researcher at the conclusion of the relevent experiment.

(a) Assistant; "Sir, we've done it, we've created artifial gravity" Researcher; "Cool."

(b) While watching their experimental apparatus slowly float towards the lab's ceiling. "Well, that's weird."

© When reviewing the results showing they had created matter that was gravitationally inert. "That's impossible." ]

 

2. Graviton spin can be effected either at creation or afterwards by an appropriate superconductor toroid generated magnetic field.

 

3. The "Force" of gravity is dependent on the number of gravitons interacting with an object.

 

4. The gravity gradient of dispersion of the field is exponentially proportional to the spin of the individual gravitons.

 

Putting these together.

 

A projector at the back of the ship (down) sends a wide beam of slowly rotating "Cool" gravitons towards the front of the ship. This beam has a gravitational effect on the entire contents of the ship but with no gradient. The strength of the field is constant. There's your artificial gravity.

 

A tight beam of the same particles gives you a "tractor" beam. Need more force? Generate more gravitons.

 

Likewise a tight beam of "Weird" gravitons gives a push effect for meteor deflection or defensive capabilities.

 

A more powerful version of the repellor aimed at Earth provides a sublight space drive. You can also use the attractor to pull you towards your destination.

 

Offensive weapons include a missile armed with an Impossible warhead. Fired at the target, when it closes a superconductive toroid spins up the gravitons in the Cool direction. This creates a tremendous gravity gradient near the target. At 100 feet the force is say 500g but at 50 feet it is 500,000 g. The tidal forces then tear the target apart. (Because of the high spin, the gravitons degrade almost instantly and so pose no threat after the detonation of the warhead.)

 

Yes, it's been a long boring day and I had plenty of time on my hands. But the idea is pretty well internally consistent and is as good as most Sci-Fi ideas. I've rarely read of gravitons in Sci-Fi and IIRC, never before used in this way.

 

Will this do?

[Rocket Man]

i would really like a reference for this, i've never heard of anyone actually detecting gravitrons. this would probably be a suitable (if only half-beliveable) substitute for rotation.

 

otherwise, do what douglas adams does and leave it to the imagination of the reader, give them a nudge in any old direction and let them draw their own conclusions.

[JohnB]

What reference? I was bored and made it all up. We hear every day about science creating strange particles, why not gravitons? And it's only logical, if gravitons cause gravity, then the more gravitons you have, the more gravity.

 

If Joe Blogs thinks about gravity at all, he thinks of it like light, radiating out in all directions and getting weaker with distance. Hence a "Graviton Beam" would be to him the same as a Laser is for light.

 

Besides, can you prove that Gravitons don't spin?

 

The main problem is that the field from the artificial gravity generator would continue out to infinity and therefore pull every meteor in front of the ship towards it's nose. Ouch. Good thing the deflector beam works.

[mooeypoo]

What would it take, and feel free to speculate, obviously, to detect -- or use -- gravitrons?

 

~moo

[mooeypoo]

[These are named for the comments of the lead researcher at the conclusion of the relevent experiment.

(a) Assistant; "Sir, we've done it, we've created artifial gravity" Researcher; "Cool."

(b) While watching their experimental apparatus slowly float towards the lab's ceiling. "Well, that's weird."

© When reviewing the results showing they had created matter that was gravitationally inert. "That's impossible." ]

 

hehe you should take a career in writing!!

 

Will this do?

 

It damn well might!! There is just something I want to figure out to make this sound more realistic -- how can a discovery of gravitons become realistic? If we didn't discover their existance (proven) yet, we can't MAKE them either.. so .. any ideas?

 

Plus, I had an idea... I read somewhere about Fusion (not fission!) reactor, and the fact that its not yet existing, but it should be realistic to do. I also read that fusion is what happens inside the sun with the particles fusing together creating massive energy (and consisting the sun itself really.. from what i understood).. If something like this does happen and we find a way to create fusion generator in a form of a man-made small star (lets assume it is small enough and stable enough to be harnessed and relatively contained) -- would this create gravity aswell?

I'm like.. stretching.. everything.. here.. and I have no idea what I'm talking about really, I just had an idea while reading about fusion and comparing it to the sun.. I might be completely off course here, and if I am, then I appologize..

 

~moo

[Rocket Man]

after a little research, it turns out that if gravitons exist they are likely to have spin. im not sure, but the higgs particle and the graviton may well be the same thing in which case, a graviton emmiter cannot exist, the gravitons remain where they are and apply a force from there.

 

i have heard a theory where gravitons are described as though they are emmitted from any mass in all directions and cause an attractive force on the move. so the focussed graviton thing could work aimed down the nose of the station.

 

i did realise you made most of the post up but i was asking for a reference to where you got the majority of real stuff.

 

for a novel, it would do nicely, just dont draw much attention to the physics behind it until it's proven.

 

 

 

a cheap, effective fusion reaction that can be made in the kitchen:

(assuming you have access to lots of deuterium)

 

bottle full of deuterium gas at room temerature and pressure, two electrodes forming any sized spark gap, fired using the voltage from a peizo electric crystal and a hammer.

the particles in the plasma in the gap gets hot enough to fuse on collision (having the electrons stripped off the nucleus helps too). this has been proven and produces fast neutrons and helium gas.

 

the only problem is trying to get it to break even energy wise; mecahnical energy is wasted, heat is dissapated too quickly, and the fast neutrons aren't terribly energetic.

 

look up the tokamac, its the system scientists are currently trying to adapt to a mass fusion reacion.

wikipedia has a lot on the topic of fusion and tokamacs and also some links to other devices.

if you're looking for alternative fuels, anything up to iron/nickel will fuse releasing energy, any thing above will only be energy+ in fisson.