New Middle Eastern War

[Pangloss]

I think it's a huge mistake to underestimate the intelligence of the current population in Lebanon. One of the reasons that so many foreigners are there right now is because that country WAS undergoing a near-renaissance. People were likening Beirut to it's old reputation of "the Paris of the Middle East" again. It wasn't the rubble-filled-streets city of the 1980s at all. Vast economic investment, a major tourism industry, a big housing boom -- the whole nine yards. People were MOVING there, and they were doing so because they WANTED to live there. That's what makes this situation so tragic -- they had come incredibly far, and now it's all gone.

 

That's not to say that there wasn't an underlying peasantry that will now happily produce thousands of new recruits for Hezbollah -- no question about that. But as I understand it MOST of the disappointment amongst the movers and shakers in the country right now is aimed squarely at the government and Hezbollah -- NOT Israel. They knew they were living in a house of cards and they knew exactly why. They knew the international community was trying to pressure their government to ditch the terrorists, but they just couldn't seem to get the job done.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't live there and I don't know anyone who does, but that's the general feeling I'm getting from reading news reports.

[mooeypoo]

Okay, against my better judgement, I will comment only a very very little thing, on my knowledge. Before you scream and lash out on me, I want you all to take into account three things:

 

1. I have lived my life in Israel.

2. I have served in the IDF, the israely military, as a Lieutenant, for three years.

3. I am far from belonging to the "right wing", let alone the extremists. I usually am greatly in support for peace, even for the price of giving out lands.

 

Now, unfortunately, and I will not get into specific stations and networks, most Media Companies, specifically in Europe, but also in the United States, are biased. Not as much "against israel" as they are "pro palestinians", portraying them as weak, poor, innocent people, and quite justly so, but up for to a point.

 

The problem in israel is not as simple as people make it sound. The problem is not "Israelis vs. Palestinians", and the war we've been having ever since the birth of the state is NOT against palestinians.

I get this argument a lot: "Why are you fighting the palestinians?? They are innocent people, they want their free land." Ignoring the fact that many of these innocent people are cooperating with terroristic groups and sending out their children to explode in busses and kill many israelis, this is just a wrong way of putting things. Israel has no fight with Palestinians. Israel has a fight with terrorists.

 

Take this into account: Israel is a very powerful state, with a strong and powerful army, smart intelligence and good navy. We have faught many wars against incredibly bad odds and won, this says a lot. If we wanted to "fight the palestinians", or, for that matter, if we actually were at war with them, it would have taken us exactly three weeks to flatten out the entire territory, similarly to what the united states has done in the entire of afganistan and iraq. We didn't do that, we don't do that, and we don't even concider doign that.

 

Moreover, every attack we do is an attempt to be as calculated as possibly possible, and if we didn't try as much as we do, many more innocent people woudl've died. But the world, my dear friends, is not as easily dealt with as we would've hoped.

 

Let me give you a scenario: You know right this instant that there is a terrorist cell working in Washington D.C., that is so well planned and determined, that it is already almost done preparing an attack that will kill about 200 people in an office building with 3 simultaneous terrorist suicide bombings going off at a minute or two difference.

You know that the place this squad is located contains civilians at the other floors, but the cell itself is working at the 5th floor at a specific room, where the bomb is done. This is a great discovery for your intelligence, and a very difficult one to obtain, as you might see as evidence of 9/11th.

Now, you face this decision: You have good weapons that can cause damage only to this specific room on this specific building, kill those terrorists - since there is no other way to stop them - BUT this bomb you have carried by your best helicopter is not 100% accurate - as everything military isn't.

It's only 90% accurate, and there is a slight chance that while hitting this specific location, you will also hit innocent people.

 

What do you do? You wait 'till nightfall, when the office building is as empty as possible. You then send your chopper, with your most accurate way of response, and you act. And you are successful. And you just saved 200 people, at the cost of 5 terrorists. The unfortunate deal, is that these terrorists were hiding amongst civilians, to use them as human shield. 2 women die as a result.

 

In any other fundamentalist country, this would be ignored. 2 women is a "small price to pay" for the lives of 200 people. But not in Israel. In israel, the news, the society, the court, the military, the government - everyone deal - and deal harshly - with the death of these civilians. Whether it was able to prevent, or whether this type of action should be done, or how, with who, when, and why. The fact we even have this type of debate when our country have absolutely no other option than to perform these direct prevention acts means we are trying our best to preserve our sanity and our ethics despite a lousy situation.

 

Now. About lebanon.

 

May I remind you that Hizbulla is a terrorist organization. In the late 1980s, it was the one responsible for 3 simultaneous bombing of U.S embasies around the world and the killing of many people in the name of Islam.

 

In this incident, the Hizbulla were not engaged first, they were not taunted or tried at, they were not even shot at.

 

At the late afternoon, the Hizbulla started firing at Israeli cities. CIVILIAN CITIES, not army posts, not army bases, not military vehicles: Civilian Cities. The military reacted by bombing the ORIGINS of the hizbulla missiles.

 

A hummer with israeli soldiers patrolled the borders, when a missile emerged from the bushes and blew it up. Following that incident, terrorists jumped the fence within seconds, activating a further alarm, picked two wounded soldiers, carried them away. This is not even "prisoners of war" situation, it is a full blown kidnapping.

 

I understand that many of you watch the news and see the damage done to the Lebanese people and their city and think about the horrible way Israel is dealing with the situation, but I would like to ask you to take a step back and think about how your own country would deal with a similar situation, where your country would've been bombed out of no provocation, then soldiers would've been kidnapped FROM within your own territory.

Israel attacked the airport and the means of transportation, to prevent the terrorists from taking our soldiers to Iran, where we will not be able to free them. We could've destroyed Lebanon. We could've flatten 40 km radius from our border, to prevent the missiles from reaching our cities -- we don't do that. We thre pamphlets from aircrafts above Lebanese cities calling people to avoid going out to the airport, before we hit it. We called out to people to get into shelters outside the Hizbulla headquarters before we bombed it.. we are not as bad as the media loves to show us.

 

I just wanted you all to think about how your own countries react to such horrific warmongering act.

 

Tak into account that a third of the israeli population is right now inside shelters. Can you imagine it? A THIRD OF A COUNTRY. This is a call for war, and it did not come from Israel. Israel faced bombings for the past 6 years without going to war, and only reacting specifically to the point, to avoid hurting innocent civilians.. but there is a time - such it is now - that such privilege is no longer available.

 

It is very different - and I am the biggest witness for that, being in America nowadays - to see the situation from afar and critisizing it, than to be IN THERE, knowing what is happening, knowing how much critisizm is going on inside israel to prevent the hit on innocent people, and to prevent war. We don't want war. Trust me. I lost 5 people to terrorist attacks, and only 2 of them were soldiers in action. The rest were bystanders in restaurants and bus stops that got hit by a suicide bomber. If anyone should "want to kill off the people that help terrorism" it should be me, but I don't. I don't want anyone to get hurt, not even the ones who educate people to hate the jews. I don't want a war, I want peace. I want to be able to change their education so that we will have a peaceful existance.

 

I wish, with all my heart, that life were that simple.

 

 

And I hope you have a slightly better view on what it is like on the other side. Even if just a small one. It was just important for me to show you the view of someone who actually lived there, and knows the situation from within.

 

 

On a more personal note: ecoli, I hope your family is okay. If you want to tell me where your mother is, I can tell you what the situation is exactly at that location and the surrounding area. Be well, and don't worry, people are very well in shelters, and if she is in the middle of israel, she is certainly not affected by any bombings yet.

 

~moo

[Pangloss]

BTW, more evidence came to light of Iran's involvement on Friday, when Hezbollah launched a sophisticated and powerful anti-ship missile at an Israeli warship.

 

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/FCBD9700-D204-44AA-9719-6B2AB11C26C4.htm

[mooeypoo]

The Lebanese government has not been hard on Hezbollah because many of its citizens are sympathetic (and undoubtly a number of citizens in government positions, as often happens) and it wants to survive.

At this moment, the Lebanese government is pretty much out of luck.

 

By the way, and this answers also a few other questions on the matter: it is true many of the civilians in Lebanon are sympathetic, but it is worse than that, since many of those who actually ARENT simpathetic (concider the fact Lebanon has a huge christian community, which is what led to their civil war in 1981) are just afraid out of their witts to do or say anything, seeing how anyone who does say anything against hizbulla is being shot for being a spy.

 

This makes the situation worse, since we know that many of these civilians are being coerced - either by forceful education through the terrorist cells abusing the religion and convincing people to blow themselves up, or their 2 year old babies to dress up like Shahid Suicide Bombers for haloween - or by just killing off anyone who hints anything against them.

 

Much worse trying to battle people that you know are not completely responsible for the situation (and are just living in a very bad place) than to battle a place that you know is against you full heartedly.

 

I cried for an hour, seeing that little boy a few months ago on the Gazza Strip wearing a bomb around his waist. The boy carried a suicide belt, trying to smuggle it past the gates. The people who sent him told him that he is only delivering, but by the looks of the belt, they planned to detonate around our soldiers. He was only 12, when our soldiers found the belt, took a safety precaution distance, and called from a distance for him to cut the explosive off his shoulders. He cried miserably, changing his mind and yelling he does not want to die.

 

Every soldiers there - and I happen to have a friend who was present - cried.

 

If they'd come close to him to help, they would've died for sure, and he would have too. They had to yell from afar, and try to control their rising emotions at the sight of a crying young boy with a death trap on himself.

 

The cynical use of innocent people in this horrible situation is just heart devastating, and it is something that a person has great difficulties handling. I spent three years of my life trying to deal with those decisions, being in the heart of the matter, commanding a group of soldiers that were about a year younger than me. I can't even begin to explain how life changing this experience is.

 

We have a shitty situation there, and we try our best to solve it as ethically as we can... but sometimes we just have no other choice.

 

~moo

[mooeypoo]

I think if Israel was interested in diffusing the issue as quickly as possible and removing the threat, they should have gone to the UN and demanded action while threatening to move in if action wasn't taken, while behind the scenes pushing through the UN for Lebanon to deal with Hezbollah.

 

I keep noticing specific things to comment, sorry for my flood here.. this is an emotional topic for me.

 

Padren, let me remind you that in 2000, three israeli soldiers were kidnapped into lebanon in a much similar way than today. In the investigation, UN Soldiers (those specific soldiers that are posted in the area are mostly from india and arabic states, may i remind you) actually helped and looked the other way AS THE INCIDENT took place.

 

Also, we have found a few red cross ambulettes travelling from and to the Gaza Strip carrying explosives inside them. This had to happen with the "shutting eyes" of the U.N. They didn't "help them", they just didn't bother stopping the terrorists.

 

We don't trust the UN if our lives depend on it.

 

Sadly, our lives do depend on it. Which is why the U.N stays off this one.

 

 

~moo

[mooeypoo]

I have a question. Didnt the land that Israel is in now originally belong to the Arabs? I dont know much about this so correct me if im wrong' date=' but wasnt that land taken from the Arabs after World War II by the UN? If so, i can kind of see why they would want to attack Israel. Im am not saying that the terrorists are right but that kind of was their land (I think).[/quote']

That's pretty much the case. Over a decade later, they would fight the Six-Day War against Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Egypt, and win.

US military aid to Israel is also considered one of the motivating factors of anti-American sentiment in Islamic countries. Personally, I think we should end it.

 

Okay, uhm, no.

 

Let me give you a brief brief history of the area.

 

The name "Israel" comes from the name of Abraham, who had 12 sons, each had a section of the land of israel at about 1300 BCE after their exodus from Egypt. They eventually formed into the Jewish Nation, recieving the name from Judah (Yehuda), one of the 12 sons, who reigned the area.

 

The rule of the israelites in the land starts with the conquests of Joshua (1250 BCE), and the period after that is concidered "The Period of the Kings". Most notable king is King David (1010-970 BCE), who made Jerusalem the Capital of Israel (up until then the city of Shiloh was concidered a semi-capital to the center of israel). He also built the first Temple in jerusalem, in the Temple Mount.

 

In 587, babylonian Nebuchadnezzar's army captured Jerusalem, destroyed the temple and exiled the jews the babylon (modern day Iraq). This is also the most notable year in jewish history, since it was the first and most widespread exile, one from which the jewish nation was striving to get back to its biblically-promised land and rebuild the temple.

 

Brief History on the Reign of Israel

 

• 587 BCE, Babylonian Empire: Distruction of the First Temple.
  538-333 BCE, Persian Emprie: Return of the exiled Jews to Israel, and the construction of the second Temple.
  
• 333-63 BCE, Hellenistic: The army of Alexander the Great conquests the area. The greeks generally allow the Jews to run their state, but during the reign of king Antiochus IV, the Temple was desecrated.
  
• 63 BCE - 313 CE, Roman Empire: Titus conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the second Temple at 70 CE, dispersing the Jewish people to the diaspora.
  This, by the way, is the origins for the Hanukka holiday, the revolt of the Jews (which is up to this day VERY VERY controversial) and the situation in Massada.
  Whatever remained from the Jewish communities in israel at that time moved up to the northern parts of the Galilee, where the jewish law - the Mishna - was created.
  
• 313-636, Byzantine: Same situation.
  
• 636-1099 Arab Empire: Dome of the Rock was built by Caliph Abd el Malik, on the same ground that the long lost Temple of the Jews was once built, starting the most bloody and horrible conflict in the area, one that stays up to this day.
  
• 1099-1291, Crusaders: Those came from Europe to capture the holy land and massacared the non-christian population. Later Jewish community in jerusalem (ironically enough) immigrated to Europe aswell, creating the communities there.
  
• 1291-1516, Mamluk: Same situation.
  
• 1516-1918, Ottoman Empire: Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent rebuilt the walls of the Old City in Jerusalem. The population in Jerusalem increased during that time. Note, that this was a muslim reign. Quite ironic
  
• 1917-1948, British Empire: Great Britain recognizing the rights of the Jewish people to establish their own state, following the horrible ramifications of the holocaust. They declare the state of Israel as cut in two: Half to be handed to the Arabs (what is Jordan today), and half to the Jews. At the same day Israel celebrated its independance, the neighboring arab states commenced a bloody war against it, trying to retake the territory of the Jews to be their own. The jews prevailed.
  
• 1968, The Six Day War: Arab terrorists begin a massive campaign against Israeli civilian cities, following by a Syrian artillery attack, and Egyptian troops moving in towards Israel through the Sinay Desert, forcing israel to defend itself in war. After six days of fighting, Israel not only wins the war, but also conquests massive territories, one of which is the gaining back of Jerusalem and the Wailing Wall, but also "gains" a heavy burden in the shape of the Sinay Desert, Gaza Strip, The West Bank and the Golan Hights. Relative quiet leads israel to take a notion of grandness, and leading it to face its worst war yet:
  
• 1973, Yom Kippur War: Though some heavy intelligence reports suggesting the neighboring countries are about to strike a massive attack against israel simultaneously, the government decides to ignore the threat, concidering the fact it is Yom Kippur - "Day of Atonment", the holiest holiday for Jews, where all is quiet, no Radio is heard, and many citizen are in deep 24 hour fast, in synagogues. The Arab nations take advantage of this obvious weakness and invades israel in a full blown coordinated conquest attack. Two weeks of horrible fighting and terrible losses followed. Israel, however the gravest odds against it, aventually came out with the military upper hand (up to this day, the israelis do not concider this war to be "won", since the toll of death was so heavy). Crossing the Suez Canal and advancing within 20 miles from Damascus on the other front. Two years of difficult netotiations between Egypt and Israel led to a disengagement agreement, according to which Israel withdrew from parts of the territories captured during the war. Egypt refused completely to accept the Gaza Strip.
  
• 1982, Operation Peace for Galilee: This is the "Lebanon War", as it is called in israel, and I will not write too much about it, since it is a long long long lonnnnnnnnng story, with many faces to it. Up to this day, many of us israelis argue the pros and cons of this affair; in short, the terrorists in the area commenced heavy artillery fire on israeli civilian cities. Israel decided to commence an operation to stop the fire; this operation lasted way too long (and this is a personal view, obviously, to get the unbiased one, please look it up online ).

If you wish, this is a nice site that explains the history of the Jewish in the region.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts About Israel/History/Facts About Israel- History

 

As you can see, however, this location was NOT arabic before it was jewish. The jews did not conquest the area from the arabs, and the UN did not give this land to the arabs; the U.N SPLIT IT. The arabs didn't agree to honor the split, and wanted to accept the ENTIRETY of the land. The arab nations, in fact, were the hostile ones. The Jews wanted merely to exist in their land, and they accepted in 1948 in dancing and merry celebration the little country they were given, without trying to fight their way towards the territories that biblically were "supposed" to be theirs. It were the Arabs that didn't agree to this.

 

 

Now, while may of these wars are debateable, and in israel it is being debated up to this day in schools regularly, the main general "feel" of the wars is that they were DEFFENSIVE. The IDF is called "Israeli Defense Forces". Israel's army is striving for peace, and fighting for its survival against enemy neighbors.

 

If you think I am biased - and I may be, heck, I am an israeli - please look up the history of israel online, but try not to state any facts without checking; I am one of those people who claim we actually SHOULD give out land for peace, but this is not as simple as it should be for two main reasons:

 

1. The palestinians do not WANT the territories; it was offered to them -- even HALF OF JERUSALEM - which is the holy city for the jews -- and not only did they refused, they started the Intifada in 2000. The Arabs proved also that they do not want ANY jews in the area, after 1948 fighting, where they wouldn't even agree to "the split in half" of israel.

 

2. The arabic mentality is a lot different than the western one, and this is DEFINATELY for another debate, but the important thing to remind you all, is that we are not talking about Democracy, we are talking about conquesting-nations. I am not saying there is no hope for peace, I am saying that in order to HAVE peace, we need to change our way of thought, and our way of conduct towards them. Of course we are not to kill everyone, but speaking in democracy-terms just doesn't work. The americans are sadly learning this in Iraq.

 

I just hope I gave you a bit of extra knowledge about Israeli past. I've seen some people talk about the Israelis taking territories from the Arabs and felt strongly about correcting this. We did take territories, but out of self defense, and we are now discussing about returning these BACK to them. The areas they are currently attacking, however, were always Jewish. From the beginning of this land.

 

The claims of Jewish people conquesting the land from the Arabs in 1948 struck a nerve. We might have had our share of warfare errors, and we conquested land, but we were not the only state doing that. Look back at the wars of America, and the European nations, calculate the number of yards conquested FROM OTHER NATIONS -- that belonged ot other nations -- and you will see Israel was one of the "gentle" ones in conquesting. I will stress again, that this fact doesn't mean we are to just keep the lands we conquested; we were one of the only countries in the world to RETURN a land conquested in war. How much of the land conquested in European wars, or in general wars around the world was NOT EVER RETURNED to their "rightful"owners? plenty.

 

Other than that, claiming that one can understand why a nation has a "grudge" against another nation is just absurd. Even if there is a grudge (and if anything, the israelites should have one against the Arab nations, for STEALING the temple mount, read some history), it does NOT explain the lack of desire for talking on a compromise. Over the span of history, specifically that of the Israel State, the arab nations almost never had the desire to speak about a compromise on the area, while the Israel State tried its best to achieve such talks (again, read some history). The peace of Jordan was a move that Israelis concidered one of the GREATEST moves in the history of the nation, more so than the "peace" with egypt, since the peace with egypt is a cold one that came only as a response to the 1973 war (theEgypt peace came at 1978). The "grudge" -- and this is PRECISELY the problem - goes both ways. Israel is TRYING to get rid of that grudge, that spans many years before the beginning of the sate, but has great difficulties doing that, seeing the violent responses of Arab nations and Arab Terrorists.

 

I just wanted you guys to have the right facts on the matter..

 

~moo

[5614]

Very nice posts mooeypoo

[Skye]

Can I just ask; what are 10,000 Britons, 25,000 Americans and 20,000 French people doing in Lebanon???

Trying to get out! AFAIK, most are people that left some time during 1976-2000, obtained citizenship, and have since returned.

[Bettina]

Very nice posts mooeypoo

 

Ditto for me too. Nice posts.

 

Bee

[ecoli]

On a more personal note: ecoli' date=' I hope your family is okay. If you want to tell me where your mother is, I can tell you what the situation is exactly at that location and the surrounding area. Be well, and don't worry, people are very well in shelters, and if she is in the middle of israel, she is certainly not affected by any bombings yet.[/quote']

 

My mother was in Jerusalem when the conflict started, though she farther north earlier in the week. She's returning home today, unharmed. Though thank you very much for your offer. It means a lot to me.

 

And also, thank you for [all] your enlightening posts. The first person perspective is interesting to hear.

[Pangloss]

Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said today on "This Week" that Iran has accomplished its goal of distracting the G8 summit. They were set to talk about what to do about Iran and putting up a united front against Iran. Now they're talking exclusively about Israel instead, and any sign of unity has been destroyed by France and Russia's condemnations of Israel's escalation.

 

I thought Putin's comments were incredibly hypocritical yesterday, calling for moderation. Take a look in the mirror, Vlad.

[ecoli]

Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said today on "This Week" that Iran has accomplished its goal of distracting the G8 summit. They were set to talk about what to do about Iran and putting up a united front against Iran. Now they're talking exclusively about Israel instead, and any sign of unity has been destroyed by France and Russia's condemnations of Israel's escalation.

 

You really think that was Iran's goal all along? I read in Haaretz that Israel didn't expect that Hezbollah could have forseen the conflict to escalate so quickly. Do you think Iran did?

[Pangloss]

I don't know, but to steal a baseball metaphor, they likely just stepped up to the plate, swinging away. This time they happened to hit one out of the park.

[padren]

Let's suppose a bunch of young republicans invade Mexico and kidnap a couple of Mexican soldiers. We then refuse the demands that we return the soldiers or gain control of these young ruffian republicans and instead agree with the YR's demand for a concession from Mexico.

 

Then' date=' to make this analogy work, let's say Mexico crosses the border in force and starts kicking our butt and we have no realistic way of answering Mexican muscular response. In that event, I suspect we'd find some way to give back the soldiers if that's what it took. Alternatively, we might hint at a crack down on the young republicans very much as the Lebanese PM is now hinting.

 

I have to admit that I don't know enough of the official Lebanese reaction to the kidnappings preceeding the attacks.

 

If Lebanon can crack down on Hezbollah at this date without triggering a civil war (as hinted in the article you cited) then I am very impressed. I just know as a general trend, when you attack a nation, the various normally fractioned groups within that nation tend to rally against the attacker, which is not advantageous in this situation.

 

If that simply had to be and there was no other solution, then I can accept that as a sad fact of the conflict. I am just not yet convinced that was the case, though I can respect many people (many with more first hand knowledge) do.

[ecoli]

I have to admit that I don't know enough of the official Lebanese reaction to the kidnappings preceeding the attacks.

 

I doubt they made an official comment on the matter (though I could be wrong).

 

If Lebanon can crack down on Hezbollah at this date without triggering a civil war (as hinted in the article you cited) then I am very impressed.

Ignoring a resolution passed by the UN TWO YEARS AGO, Lebanon failed to retake it's southern boarder from Hezbollah. As far as I know, they made no attempt to even speak out verbally against the millitant group.

 

As far as I'm concerned, UN troops should be helping Israel clean out the area, rather then telling them to cease fire, as per their OWN resolution. The UN told Lebanon to retake the boarder two years ago. UN should have taken over the job after Lebanon failed to. As the southern neighbor being harmed by the presence of Hezbollah, the job has fallen to Israel.

 

 

The UN can pass all the resolutions and agreements it wants, but what they say on paper can be virtually meaningless.

 

I just know as a general trend, when you attack a nation, the various normally fractioned groups within that nation tend to rally against the attacker, which is not advantageous in this situation.

 

No indeed, especially since the attacker doesn't want to cause specific harm to the civilians of that country (as is often the case in wars with terrorist groups).

 

If that simply had to be and there was no other solution, then I can accept that as a sad fact of the conflict. I am just not yet convinced that was the case, though I can respect many people (many with more first hand knowledge) do.

 

I have yet to hear another solution that I feel would be affective against Hezbollah.

 

Unfortunately, a ceasefire at this point would only cause the situation to be exactly what it was before this mess started, and all those deaths (civilian and otherwise) will have been in vain.

 

This military campaign must continue for several reasons, as I see it.

 

1) Hezbollah must be disarmed in Lebonon so the Lebanese army can retake the southern boarder. This is the only option that insures the security of the Israeli people and of Lebanon as well.

2) If Hezbollah is not disbanded, Israel cannot help Lebanon rebuild damaged infrastructure. When this war is over, Israel will be obligated to rebuild damaged buildings, etc. within Lebanon. With Hezbollah still in the picture, Israel will not want to rebuild, nor will Hezbollah allow them into the country to rebuild.

3) Lebanon, especially Beirut, is modernizing and becoming an economically strong country, attracting tourism from all over the world. This is the type of country that Israel, as well as the rest of the West, can be allies with, as long as Hezbollah is disbanded. This is important for the civilians of Lebanon and the peace process in the middle east.

[mooeypoo]

Thanks for your comments guys, I was hoping I managed to give you info without sounding too condencending

 

 

I have to admit that I don't know enough of the official Lebanese reaction to the kidnappings preceeding the attacks.

 

Well, this is my view from experience and knowledge of the area (not a political-proven theory) so take it as it is -- I actually would guess that the "lebanese government", is not even an issue. Since before Hizbullah was in the government, Syria was a major player in the country, and Iran (and this actually is a well known fact) is the one pulling the strings behind Hizbullah operations. Ever since the Hizbullah entered the government officially, though, the government is unable to react, or even DO anything on the matter.. I don't think anyone in the government will go publically against the actions, but they do HINT against it, which is the best that they can do without losing their lives, I would imagine.

 

The UN can pass all the resolutions and agreements it wants, but what they say on paper can be virtually meaningless.

Yeah, sadly you are right. This is also why in israel, the UN is called "OOM SHMOOM", OOM is the pronounciation of the hebrew abbreviation "U.N", and "shmoom" is like "noth'n". The U.N is very good at handing out papers and very bad at practically keeping any kind of fairness or peace in the area, so it really isn't working.

 

As for solutions, well.. there are solutions, but they aren't to be made in the battleground. The solution against a militant terroristic cells are Intelligence and Direct-Response-Strike teams. You don't fight militant terrorist cells like you fight a country, obviously. What I truely hope is that Israel itself finally realizes that the Hizbullah is not as "old fashioned" and "unorganized" as it used to be. So far, it made a grave amount of damage that seems to be well planned. No doubt someone is pulling their strings, and I could bet it's Iran.

 

Someone at work today said in half irony (seeing as Israel has many wars, each with its own colorful name), that he wonders how this war would be called. I said I truely hope that it wouldn't be called "War World III". It seems that if the situation gets bad enough, it might aswell pull the entire region into a very very bad situation.

 

No doubt we have to get rid of the militant cells in southern lebanon, but they are not only the problem. Syria, for taht matter, is a huge incubator for terrorists including Hammas, El Qaeda and Hizbullah, and they are not going to fight those. Personally, I would hope the United States, in its fight against terrorism, would take Syria BEFORE it takes on Iran, since a war with Iran (with its capabilities) would DEFINATELY draw a third world war, or at least something quite similar to that.

 

There is also, in my view, another thing worth understanding: There is a BATTLE that is done in Lebanon and Israel, but the war has already commenced around the entire world. What israel is fighting right now are the same people who branched out of the cells that attacked Embasies, blew out planes and taken down the Twin Towers in the name of Islam.

 

This battle should be won, but the war itself would demand much more work from many other countries other than israel..

 

~moo

[Bettina]

Personally, I would hope the United States, in its fight against terrorism, would take Syria BEFORE it takes on Iran, since a war with Iran (with its capabilities) would DEFINATELY draw a third world war, or at least something quite similar to that.

 

I think I would reverse that order. Iran is much more evil than Syria and has been taunting the world with its anti Jewish remarks more openly and are looking to build Nuclear weapons under the guise of nuclear power. They aren't fooling me one bit.

Iran is a world problem and I don't like the idea of my country doing all the dirty work.

 

There is also, in my view, another thing worth understanding: There is a BATTLE that is done in Lebanon and Israel, but the war has already commenced around the entire world. What israel is fighting right now are the same people who branched out of the cells that attacked Embasies, blew out planes and taken down the Twin Towers in the name of Islam.

 

This battle should be won, but the war itself would demand much more work from many other countries other than israel..

 

~moo

 

Exactly. And add blowing up supermarkets full of women and kids which is their specialty. I'm sorry to say this but the "other countries" you mentioned are cowards.

 

Bee

[mooeypoo]

I think I would reverse that order. Iran is much more evil than Syria and has been taunting the world with its anti Jewish remarks more openly and are looking to build Nuclear weapons under the guise of nuclear power. They aren't fooling me one bit.

Iran is a world problem and I don't like the idea of my country doing all the dirty work.

I completely understand what you're saying. The feeling in Israel is that at least until 9/11th' date=' it was Israel who did the "dirty work" for the world, fighting terrorism in the emmediate vecinity in the Middle East - terrorist cells that spawned the attacks on the twin towers and links to El Qaeda.

 

I completey understand. I still think, however, that dealing with Syria before Iran would be wiser, concidering the fact Iran wouldn't get into syria's help, and the operation shouldn't take too long or too dificult. Also, Syria is holding so many terrorist cells, that destroying them would give a much better base and foundation for a war with Iran.

 

Iran is far from being an easy target; it is VERY advanced, and ironically, it is quite western in its technology. I once read in a book something very true: In terms of Current Days Islam, we are now dealing with 14th century fundamentalists that have access to 21st century weaponary. I really do believe, sadly, that Iran has horrible weapons: if not operational nuclear warheads, then chemical/biological weaponary. I doubt they will be an easy target at a full blown war.

 

Knowing the situation, though, I doubt it will START one either.. at least not officially.. this also explains who gives orders to the Hizbullah, and why they do it like THIS... imho.

 

Iran would be a horrible opponent. I think it might be wiser to set the grounds with Syria first.. but it's my own opinion, of course

 

 

Exactly. And add blowing up supermarkets full of women and kids which is their specialty. I'm sorry to say this but the "other countries" you mentioned are cowards.

It's worse than cowards, it's blindness. Many of the european countries are being filled with muslim cells. It is becoming a safe haven for Muslim Fundamentalists, and the countries that ignore it (like France, is the best example) will end up being Iranisized.

 

I just hope the countries wake up soon, without waiting for the terrorism to reach their grounds in order to convince them..

 

~moo

[Skye]

I'm pretty sure that after an emergency meeting the Lebanese government said that they had no knowledge of the initial raid and didn't condone it. Or words to that effect. Remember that the government itself is dominated by anti-Syrian members, with only a small number of Hezbollah members or their allies.

[Severian]

The biggest question to me is why should I care what happens in the Middle East anymore? Both sides have shown that they are not willing to compromise - they both seem to want to fight to the death. Maybe it is time we let them?

 

Iran is a world problem and I don't like the idea of my country doing all the dirty work.

 

If it is your perception that they are a problem then it is you and your country who has to do something about it. I do not perceive them as a problem, so why should I get involved?

 

I would much prefer my government spend my money sorting out Africa than the Middle East.

 

Tell me, is Afghanistan less of a problem for the west or more of a problem than it was 10 years ago? How about Iraq?

[ecoli]

The biggest question to me is why should I care what happens in the Middle East anymore? Both sides have shown that they are not willing to compromise - they both seem to want to fight to the death. Maybe it is time we let them?

 

If it is your perception that they are a problem then it is you and your country who has to do something about it. I do not perceive them as a problem' date=' so why should I get involved?

 

I would much prefer my government spend my money sorting out Africa than the Middle East.

 

Tell me, is Afghanistan less of a problem for the west or more of a problem than it was 10 years ago? How about Iraq?[/quote']

 

The problem is, that it IS your problem. If not now, then it will be. Don't forget, the terrorists want to kill you too.

 

I have a bad feeling that this is going to escalate. Not because Israel has it wrong, but because there are still many people around the world sympathetic to the cause of the terrorists. Oddly, they are sympathetic to those who despise them and who would like nothing better then to kill them.

 

These are truly strange times, when we support our enemies.

[ecoli]

I just had a conversation with a co-worker today about the conflict. I was amazed that she virutally nothing of the situation that was going on. I was asked what instigated the invasion and I told her that two soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah.

 

She told me that she heard Israel had done something to Hezbollah to instigate that; however. I was so thrown off I couldn't answer her.

 

Hezbollah had captured the soldiers in response to Israel imprisoning one of their members on the charge of murder.

 

I have been following the situation rather closely so I surprised by her lack of knowledge.

 

That really scared me. In times of war, we cannot afford ignorance, especially when that means you would express sympathy for a terrible foe.

 

I figured I would make this post in a special plea to everyone on this site. Please read newspapers and blogs and ANY information about the situation as you can, in an attempt to 'average out' media bias. And please, try to spread that knowledge to everyone you know. An uninformed population is a helpless one.

 

Whatever conclusions you draw about the conflict can be your own, but I beg you to make those conclusions based on fact, not lies.

 

Forgive my 'Lord of the Rings'-esque sentiments, but I sense dark times ahead.

[Severian]

The problem is, that it IS your problem. If not now, then it will be. Don't forget, the terrorists want to kill you too.

 

No they don't. There is no reason for Iran to want to kill me. They want to kill you because you want to kill them. I only knew one person who was klilled by terroists and that was the ANC.

 

You might have grounds for saying that terrorists would like to kill me (which is not the same thing as Iran). But they only want to kill me as a statement to my government - if my government would stop playing silly buggers I would be much much safer.

 

Anyway, even with a crap government, I am still at more risk from passive smoking than I am from terrorists. And I am not planning on mass murdering smokers any time soon.

[Pangloss]

The biggest question to me is why should I care what happens in the Middle East anymore? Both sides have shown that they are not willing to compromise - they both seem to want to fight to the death. Maybe it is time we let them?

 

I get the same feeling quite often. Unfortunately I don't think my country is allowed to do that sort of thing. We get bashed when we step back from the table in order to not reward despots and terrorists. (North Korea comes to mind.)

 

In a sense that's part of Bush's approach here, and it's the right approach. We saw France and Russia condemn Israel with equal weight on Thursday. But Friday they released a statement together that blamed the entire thing on Hezbollah, and merely called on Israel to be careful. Clearly Bush/Rice had an impact in their internal discussions.

 

This is one of the things that irks me about partisan opposition. There's no question in my mind that we'll see Maddy "Look, I'm a girl!" Albright and half the Clinton cabinet making the rounds on Sunday telling us how much worse Bush is making things. Never mind the fact that he's playing exactly the same kinds of cards that they played, and if it wasn't for partisanship they'd be agreeing with most of the White House's moves.

 

Don't get me wrong, Bush blunders as much as he succeeds (maybe more). I just get a little sick of the absolute determination to make him all wrong, all the time.

[Severian]

We get bashed when we step back from the table in order to not reward despots and terrorists.

 

You only get bashed by your own people though. Most of the world wants you to leave it alone.