Will there be a draft anytime soon?

[blackhole123]

With the way things are today and with the middle east does anyone think that there will be a draft?

 

(Mod Edit: This question refers to American politics.)

[herpguy]

I honestly have no idea. Hopefully, the answer is no.

[Sisyphus]

I would say no. The last time there was a draft (Vietnam), it worked out horribly. If they tried it again there would be riots in the streets. Even when the draft had good public approval, draftees on average have always proved far less effective and far more death-prone than volunteers. If it comes down to it, we would withdraw our forces before we would institute the draft again.

[ecoli]

It would be political suicide for anyone who tried.

[CPL.Luke]

also the population difference between the US and pretty much any country that we would be in a war with makes it so that its relatively easy for us to field an all volunteer army that can deal with them.

[mooeypoo]

I would hope not.

 

In my opinion, and with my experience, a fight against terrorism (like the one that is attempted at in the Middle East) does not require large numbers, but a strong intelligence and percise reaction. I don't think a draft should be needed.

 

But then.. I don't know the U.S.A, I just state if I think it's necessary, not if I think it WILL be done. That is, obviously, the president's choice.

 

I must wish you all that this won't be done, though, ever again.

 

~moo

[bascule]

I can only assume this question is targeted at Americans.

 

I predict:

 

The Republicans wouldn't dare try to instate the draft before the fall election

The Republicans will still lose sorely in the fall election

The Democrats would much rather end the war than reinstate the draft

 

So, the conclusion is no.

[Pangloss]

I can only assume this question is targeted at Americans.

 

Thanks bascule, I edited the first post for the sake of clarity.

[scicop]

Oh I hope there is!! Too many of today's youth don't have a concept of defending their nation or serving the flag of the United States of America. We may not like its leaders but they are still OUR leaders and the american way of life, although flawed at times, is worth standing up for and defending.

 

I met a great guy the other day, a jarhead who was in vietnam and took multiple hits as was discharged honorably due to disability (he has a purple heart). I felt and still hold the up most respect and gratitude for a leatherneck like that and I think most youths forget out today. There is a feeling awe one gets when you talk to a guy like that. I salute guys like that! I for one think the draft may help rekindle some patriotism that I FEEL we've lost since 9/11.

 

Bring on the draft I say. I've i'm not in by then..i'll be first in line then.

[Mokele]

Oh I hope there is!! Too many of today's youth don't have a concept of defending their nation or serving the flag of the United States of America.

 

I think that's a rather narrow definition of 'service'. Why only military? I'd consider the people maintaining the roads and communication systems serving the country too. And teachers. And scientists. And farmers.

 

Not to mention I'm a strong proponent of a fully mechanized/robotic military, with no human exposure to any hazards.

 

If we wanted to compell service, I'd suggest sending people to teach in the public schools before the military. The need is more dire, and plus if we raise a new generation of well-educated, scientifically literate students, we'll just be able to install orbital death-rays and wage wars exclusively that way.

 

Mokele

[mooeypoo]

Bring on the draft I say. I've i'm not in by then..i'll be first in line then.

 

As someone who actually did her service for her country, I would say you have no idea what it means, if you welcome it with such enthusiasm.. I'm not saying you are wrong with the part about youth having no patriotism, since I haven't lived in America all that long, but even if it is true, there are other - more productive and less distructive ways - to make that happen, than to draft young kids to fight a war, specifically one that is thousands of miles away.

 

War is not what you see in movies, sorry to use such a clear cliche' of a sentence.. I'm just not all that pro-militaries when these are unnecessary. The U.S.A military is big enough as it is today to fight at any upcoming war. A Draft should not be needed. And even if it is, I would be far from hoping for one..

 

~moo

[ecoli]

Not to mention I'm a strong proponent of a fully mechanized/robotic military, with no human exposure to any hazards.

 

Yup, and our enemies will send their robots to fight our robots, and nobody has to get hurt!

 

Hell, forget fullfledged wars altogether! We can just have the scientists from each country build a battlebot. May the best droid win.

[AzurePhoenix]

Why not just take it one step further and have all warfare take place on a sort of international internet-like thing designed to be some immense Warcraft sorta thing?

[ecoli]

Why not just take it one step further and have all warfare take place on a sort of international internet-like thing designed to be some immense Warcraft sorta thing?

 

Virtual reality warfare! Forget the draft... I'm enlisting!

[Mokele]

Somehow 'pwned day' doesn't instill me with a sense of thrilling victory...

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Why not just take it one step further and have all warfare take place on a sort of international internet-like thing designed to be some immense Warcraft sorta thing?

How would you take over someone's country like that? Hope that their teenagers are so demoralized by their loss that they won't be able to fight back when you march in?

[AzurePhoenix]

I personally want my battles to be filled with blood spattering flesh-scorching horrors that will haunt the survivors' dreams and every waking thought to the day they die. While I sit in safety and sip pomegranate juice as I watch it all unfold on a ten foot plasma tv

 

How would you take over someone's country like that? Hope that their teenagers are so demoralized by their loss that they won't be able to fight back when you march in?

I should have indicated my sarcasm better, or they could operate on good faith.

[scicop]

I think that's a rather narrow definition of 'service'. Why only military? I'd consider the people maintaining the roads and communication systems serving the country too. And teachers. And scientists. And farmers.

 

Not to mention I'm a strong proponent of a fully mechanized/robotic military' date=' with no human exposure to any hazards.

 

If we wanted to compell service, I'd suggest sending people to teach in the public schools before the military. The need is more dire, and plus if we raise a new generation of well-educated, scientifically literate students, we'll just be able to install orbital death-rays and wage wars exclusively that way.

 

Mokele[/quote']

 

ALL of those who practice in those professions owe thanks to the people who SERVE TO PROTECT their right to be scientist, teachers, artist, muscians, psychologist etc. Without our arm forces, cops, firefighters, EMTs, civil defense volunteers, you do not have science, medicine, art, music. You want proof..look at Iraq!

 

I didn't want to be military specific, but I in keeping with the thread topic I stayed military!

 

While I'm at it,here's my opinion about those jobs you mentioned. They are in the "service" but they are not patriotism based, at the end of the day its just people following their "career" without people necessarily putting their country or fellow citizens first. The choice of individuals to pursue those professions has been preserved by countless unsung heros who have died to protect those choices (again, not just military, but cops, and other first responders).

 

To reiterate, those professions you mentioned are NOT associated nor do they "generally" promote feelings patriotism among its practicioners ! Nor do they involve putting one's life in danger....there is a difference! There are jobs that people choose to do that put their lives in danger, but they know its for the great good of their fellow citizens and country..so they do it!

 

Trust me I'm a former scientist, I do hold a PhD and have had extensive post doc experience..and I have never seen a scientist wearing the flag of the united states on thier sleeves or above their heart (I had a american flag on my lab coat, right sleeve).

 

On 9/11/01 here in NYC I walked out my building and saw people running in the streets. I walked into my lab thinking that my fellow scientist colleagues would stop their experiments and join me to head down to the towers (still standing at that time). I only mustered a hand full of people (couple grad students and technicians); the rest spent the rest of the day and the week working at their bench!

 

It sickened me! Their fellow citizens needed help and they just stayed at the bench. Where was the patriotism? Well, me and my small group ran down to GZero, we were immediately recruited by Red Cross, I was put in charge of all red cross communications at first on-site office of emergency management. Cops, firefighters, and other first responders were comming to me to ask questions and obtain information, thinking "I" was the "RED CROSS" (walkie-talkie and the red cross badge..alot of power and trust in times of disaster). When I returned to my lab a week later I found out most of my lab mates stayed in the lab, because the felt that they '"didn't know how they as scientist could contribute" so they stayed at the bench. I say BS!!!!! An EXCUSE!!! My annoyance was further precipitated when there was are article published by T.V. Rajan in "the-scientist" a few weeks later, stating that he was doing the patriotic thing by doing experiements in the lab that week!!! BS!! I was there, and I can tell you..we NEEDED HELP!!! Guy like that need to have his citizenship (if he was a US citizen) revoked!!!

 

So you say scientist serve our country.....REALLY???!!!!!!! I spoke to others from the different research institutions in NYC, they said the same. No doubt scientist serve mankind! but country..um..I have a hard time accepting that.

Solely based on MY experiences...so its MY OPINION and I dont care what anyone says about it!!!

 

I don't expect you all to understand where I'm comming from, I imagine that most individuals here have not had people look to them as an authority in times of great fear and confusion.

[AzurePhoenix]

ALL of those who practice in those professions owe thanks to the people who SERVE TO PROTECT their right to be scientist, teachers, artist, muscians, psychologist etc. Without our arm forces, cops, firefighters, EMTs, civil defense volunteers, you do not have science, medicine, art, music. You want proof..look at Iraq!

He never said artist / musician / psychologist. Now he might have meant people in general as in service to culture and society, but don't you think it's a tad more reasonable to think about what he said rationally, and think for a second that maybe he meant service to the military? Communications seem to be pretty important to a battle, or the impact military scientists have on a soldiers effectiveness as a warrior, not to mention his safety? Seems to me soldiers should be pretty thankful they've got those farmers aorund to feed them too, not to mention the technicians who keep their nifty-war machines running (and design them in the first place). Or what about medics?

 

You know, I think it's great that you're so patriotic and all that jazz, good for you, but I think you're letting your own flag-waving yankee-doodle-dementia blind you to the greater reality of the situation. Sure we'd be screwed if no one had the nerves or self-sacrificing ideals to risk their lives for actual battle, but we're just as screwed or more so without all the countless people who devote their lives to actually maintaining the army. Being patriotic doesn't mean you have to stop being practical.

 

While I'm at it,here's my opinion about those jobs you mentioned. They are in the "service" but they are not patriotism based, at the end of the day its just people following their "career" without people necessarily putting their country or fellow citizens first.

---

To reiterate, those professions you mentioned are NOT associated nor do they "generally" promote feelings patriotism among its practicioners ! Nor do they involve putting one's life in danger....there is a difference! There are jobs that people choose to do that put their lives in danger, but they know its for the great good of their fellow citizens and country..so they do it!

I think you're jumping to a conclusion that has no real basis. Some people might just happen to be smart enough to realize that their skills would be put to better use serving their nation to the best of their abilities. Patriotism is not the same thing as getting caught up in the rush of "Destroy the Terrorists" blood-lust, it's about loving their nation, and doing their best for it in whatever way they are best suited to do so. If you're good at designing better tanks, good for you, if you're useless for anything but putting a rapid stop to the travel of enemy bullets and don't mind doing so, kudos to you too.

 

And beyond that, I think there is strength and honor in standing up for one's ideals, and for some people, that is non-violence. Or maybe they don't take aan actively pacifistic stance, but they're certainly mortified of doing harm to antoher person. And is it really that terrible for someone to be unwilling to lose their own life?

 

The choice of individuals to pursue those professions has been preserved by countless unsung heros who have died to protect those choices (again, not just military, but cops, and other first responders).

Commendable certainly, but I think you're assuming that just because they chose a dangerous job it automatically means they truly understand the risks or even care. As for the military, many people look to it as an escape, a chance to have their schooling paid for, some people see it as their last viable option, a few nutters are just thrillseekers who want the rush. Not all of course, but more than a few.

 

It sickened me! Their fellow citizens needed help and they just stayed at the bench. Where was the patriotism? When I returned to my lab a week later I found out most of my lab mates stayed in the lab, because the felt that they '"didn't know how they as scientist could contribute" so they stayed at the bench. I say BS!!!!! An EXCUSE!!!

I understand you feel rather strongly about this, so I won't even try to rationalize non-patriotism, and I certainly don't know what your colleagues were thinking, but why does this specific example have to translate to being unpatriotic? Isn't it true that some people are betters suited to functioning in a crisis? Better able to act under extremely trying circumstances? Other people freeze up, maybe they panic, maybe they don't know how they could help in a 9/11-type situation simply because they're overwhelmed and see the little things they could do as futile compared to the big, horrific picture. Not everyone is capable of taking action under such enormous pressures.

 

My annoyance was further precipitated when there was are article published by T.V. Rajan in "the-scientist" a few weeks later, stating that he was doing the patriotic thing by doing experiements in the lab that week!!! BS!! I was there, and I can tell you..we NEEDED HELP!!! Guy like that need to have his citizenship (if he was a US citizen) revoked!!!

Some people see strength in stability, a pillar to hold onto in the storm. And the whole nation can't just drop everything and cease to function. Especially when it comes to people who actually have nothing to contribute, whether for lack of ability or simple ignorance of just that they're capable of accomplishing for others.

 

I think that's a rather narrow definition of 'service'. Why only military? I'd consider the people maintaining the roads and communication systems serving the country too. And teachers. And scientists. And farmers.

To sum up; if a draft is ever enforced I agree, though I'm adamantally against the concept of any sort of draft in the first place.

[scicop]

Well said! I'm not totally a gun toting fiend, nor do I necessarily believe that being in the military is the path to patriotic salvation. I for one know that the military is not just "shoot'em, blow'em up", there is a huge support for system that goes behind every soldier (i think the ratio is 10 support people for every 1 soldier and 5 commissioned officers for every 1 non-commissioned). Even if I go to the military, of which I'm in the process of doing (background check, security clearence paper work and commissioning going on now) , I would be in a support (scientist) position (although still an active duty soldier) by virtue of my degree, which can be a little unfortunate, if things go on the way to they do I feel strongly that I may have to try to get on the front lines once I get in.

 

Anyway, I see what your saying and I won't reply, it will go off topic to much. I think you're young, but I feel you'll see my view as you get older and gather more experiences in the real world.

 

My whole point to all this is that I feel that todays younger generation has no sense of what war really is! I think a draft will do america good, we need some more sparkys, gippers, eagle eyes, skinnys, reds, in our society today!

[Mokele]

ALL of those who practice in those professions owe thanks to the people who SERVE TO PROTECT their right to be scientist, teachers, artist, muscians, psychologist etc. Without our arm forces, cops, firefighters, EMTs, civil defense volunteers, you do not have science, medicine, art, music.

 

And where do those armed forces get their guns? How are they transported to battle? How are they taught the skills they need to operate artillery pieces and suchlike? Where does their food come from? Where do they get nifty toys like stealth bombers and instant wound-sealers? Whose taxes support them?

 

Think of a country like an organism: the organism needs an immune system, or it'll be invaded and killed. But that's not *all* it needs. Without a digestive system, where will the immune cells get nutrients? Without a sensory and motor system, how will it avoid injury? Without nervous and endocrine systems, how will it regulate it's internal state, allowing the immune system to fight? Without a circulatory system, how will oxygen get to the immune system?

 

A country is an integrated whole, with each part interacting with the others. The military is the immune system, and such a system *does* play a vital role. But that doesn't mean the other systems are inferior; indeed, without the other system, the immune system and body as a whole fail.

 

Furthermore, I find it rather ironic that you declare science not equal to military service in this regard, when, in fact, our military power rests *primarily*, if not soley, on our status as the most technologically advanced fighting force in the world. Where do you think this technology comes from?

 

To reiterate, those professions you mentioned are NOT associated nor do they "generally" promote feelings patriotism among its practicioners ! Nor do they involve putting one's life in danger....there is a difference! There are jobs that people choose to do that put their lives in danger, but they know its for the great good of their fellow citizens and country..so they do it!

 

And?

 

First, if putting one's life in danger is a qualifier, you've just removed a huge portion of the military from consideration. *Some* soliders fight. Many others coordinate movements, build bridges to enable troop movements, coordinate communications, gather inteligence, maintain the technology our forces depend upon, supply fuel, transport equipment, or even handle paperwork.

 

Second, as far as personal advancement vs service to others, look at the military. Yes, *some* join to serve their country, etc. But how many join because they need a way to afford college, or to learn job skills, or any other 'selfish' reason? Plus, since when has service to others been exclusive to personal advancement? You think aerospace engineers join Lockheed-Martin for the service aspect, or for the $100k starting salary? Does that salary mean the F-22 is of any less service to the country?

 

As far as instilling patriotism, why do you think that the military is the only way to do that? I can offer more empirical proof of my patriotism than most Americans: I had to actually *work* to become a US citizen, and it's something I put effort into, rather than just dropping out of some woman's vagina in the right location. Just because I'm not out there getting shot at doesn't mean I'm less patriotic.

 

And, for that matter, what of those who cannot serve for religious, mental or physical reasons? Or those whose skills are such that they can do more for the country in a civilian position?

 

I'm by no means trashing the military. I'm saying you seem to percieve a false dichotomy between those in active military service, and everyone else.

 

and I have never seen a scientist wearing the flag of the united states on thier sleeves or above their heart (I had a american flag on my lab coat, right sleeve).

 

Since when do fashion choices indicate patriotism? I don't wear a US flag, in part because I find any manner of 'wearing one's heart upon one's sleeve' to be, bluntly, tacky and classless. The strength of your beliefs in anything, god, country, whatever, is not correlated with the degree to which you trumpet those beliefs to the world.

 

When I returned to my lab a week later I found out most of my lab mates stayed in the lab, because the felt that they '"didn't know how they as scientist could contribute" so they stayed at the bench. I say BS!!!!! An EXCUSE!!!

 

Yes, it's an excuse, but not for what you think. As Azure pointed out, some people are just plain not good at dealing with crises. Some can only maintain mental stability in the face of such alarming circumstances by clinging even more strongly to the ordinary and familiar. In fact, I'd lay money that your lab mates put in a lot of extra hours that week, specifically *because* the familair environment and tasks were soothing.

 

No doubt scientist serve mankind! but country..um..I have a hard time accepting that.

 

Where do you think the atomic bomb came from? Or the stealth fighter?

 

I think you're young, but I feel you'll see my view as you get older and gather more experiences in the real world.

 

Sorry, but that's just a cop-out, and it annoys me every time I see it.

 

My whole point to all this is that I feel that todays younger generation has no sense of what war really is!

 

And that's a bad thing? Sorry, I prefer to avoid PTSD and mental breakdowns for the rest of my life due to being scarred for life by the horrors that humans can inflict upon one another.

 

Mokele

[AzurePhoenix]

I think you're young, but I feel you'll see my view as you get older and gather more experiences in the real world.

No one's called me young since I was eight... and as Mokele pointed out, that kind of assumption is rather irritating, and downright arrogant. Judging from that earlier post, you can rest assured my outlook wouldn't sit well with you, and let me tell you, it's about as likely that Bush himself would side with Osama and be the front-man in a second 9/11 as it is that my stance would ever grow soft and flag-wavy.

 

My whole point to all this is that I feel that todays younger generation has no sense of what war really is!

I'm certain that thanks to the media they have a better idea than the past generations did. It isn't some battle for glory and heroism, more than anything it's a game between higher powers safely tucked away in their palaces while they send off naive boys (no matter how old they are) to fight and die for something they likely don't understand, and perhaps wouldn't agree with if they did (assuming they were even told the truth anyway). It's all a big, gore-spattered game of chess floating on a pool of viper-politicians (sorry mokele for the herp reference).

 

I think a draft will do america good

Doesn't that defy what america is supposed to be? Forgetting all the other wonderful or terrible, corrupt or valiant aspects of the United States for a moment, doesn't a draft epitomize the worst sort of loss of freedom? Forcing it's citizens to go to war? To lay down their lives and risk death for a fight that isn't even theirs?

[Karnage]

Doesn't that defy what america is supposed to be? Forgetting all the other wonderful or terrible' date=' corrupt or valiant aspects of the United States for a moment, doesn't a draft epitomize the worst sort of loss of freedom? Forcing it's citizens to go to war? To lay down their lives and risk death for a fight [i']that isn't even theirs[/i]?

 

I'm terribly sorry to intervene...I do not have much opinion on politics but what you say here is quite interesting. I am not saying that I favor the draft, however, You have to realize that there is no such thing as total freedom. Even in the past, freedom has been limited, especially in times of war. Thus saying, if Congress would impose a draft, it would probably be for a good reason -- to ensure the safety of the general american citizens.

 

By the way, why would you be so concerned about the draft? Women would not engage in any hand-to-hand combat if they were drafted.

[AzurePhoenix]

I am not saying that I favor the draft, however, You have to realize that there is no such thing as total freedom. Even in the past, freedom has been limited, especially in times of war.

Having regularly done something before doesn't make it any more acceptable the hundredth time around. And I'll never believe any nation could offer total freedom, some sacrifices must be made, but I see a draft as too ridiculously foul to even be considered by a so-called free country.

 

Thus saying, if Congress would impose a draft, it would probably be for a good reason -- to ensure the safety of the general american citizens.

By sending some of those same citizens off to likely kill and quite possibly die, possibly against their will, and not to mention get labled a traitorous deserter if they had the audacity to refuse their gracious goverment.

 

By the way, why would you be so concerned about the draft? Women would not engage in any hand-to-hand combat if they were drafted.

Something I'm offended by. I'm a better shot with a rifle than all the so-called guys I know, and I'm certainly got a more refined killer instinct. And you seem to be overlooking the fact that I might very well have a few males in my life that I wouldn't be so eager to send off to be riddled with bullets.

[Karnage]

Having regularly done something before doesn't make it any more acceptable the hundredth time around. And I'll never believe any nation could offer total freedom, some sacrifices must be made, but I see a draft as too ridiculously foul to even be considered by a so-called free country.

 

OK OK OK OK. You just stated that above and I totally agree. Now read what you say below.

 

By sending some of those same citizens off to likely kill and quite possibly die, possibly against their will, and not mention get labled a traitorous deserter if they had the audacity to refuse their gracious goverment.

 

But wait! Didn't you say above that "I'll never believe any nation could offer total freedom, some sacrifices must be made"? You might be thinking: oh but the draft is bad ohhhhhh myyyy. But these are the little sacrifices we have to take. Sure it's wrong to take citizens off to kill against their own will; but if citizens won't fight WHO WILL? WHO will preserve our safety? WHO will help to preserve the rights and prerogatives that are dictated in our constitution? WHO is willing to do all this? But you might be thinking: ohhh but there are SOLDIERS and TROOPS out there to protect us we don't need to worry about it. I highly doubt that those soldiers are willing to risk their lives and to LOSE their families over sum stupid war. They are just like us -- not wanting to fight. Plus, soldiers won't last forever. We cannot rely on them to fight this war while we "sit back and sip pomegranate juice watching plasma TV". We need action now. We need to take immediate action to prevent any attack on our safety and welfare.

 

Something I'm offended by. I'm a better shot with a rifle than all the so-called guys I know, and I'm certainly got a more refined killer instinct. And you seem to be overlooking the fact that I might very well have a few males in my life that I wouldn't be so eager to send off to be riddled with bullets.

 

That's good to know. But it won't help you if your'e not gonna fight in a war anyway.