Dimention and Perception

[YT2095]

most of our probes do contain simple to understand information, incl that of basic mathematics, for example sequences of non naturaly occuring numbers Primes for example, something that indicates inteligence by the fact that it couldn`t have occured by simple chance. the doing a little more research idea sounds good though

[Rasori]

(I'm supposed to shut up!)

But by putting our primes doesn't mean that they are the same to them, so they may just think that we came up with random lines and scribbles and said 'this is a prime!' because to them, our 3 could be like %^#$!.

 

Although, the fact that we have a probe sent out there SHOULD tell them that we know something.

[mooeypoo]

You both REALLY should read Crichton's books.

 

I agree with you Rasori, but on a different level. I think that its not only that we seek for out OWN personal human definition of life (which is LIMITED as hell, since we haven't even began to imagine what's on our own planet - say, at the bottom of the ocean) its also a matter of perception and definition as a general.

 

The odds there are life around the universe are extremely high. The odds they are similar to us (have eyes, nose, hair, legs, hands, head, even if they're combined differently..) is slim.

 

If such slight changes in the surroundings (such as air pressure and exposure to sun radiation) resulted in such a difference between human races (chinese, arabs, native americans, africans - they're all different = though having very VERY small changes in surroundings, if we compare them to the infinite space..) we can't expect aliens coming to earth from huge changes in atmosphere, pressure, AGE (we're relatively young, don't forget), and so on - to come to earth *before* a much advanced, much less noticeable (they might be standing here and we intercept them as a BUG because we don't realise the true meaning of what they are..) that possibility is EXTREMELY slim.

 

 

~~~

btw, I'm back

~~~

 

~mooeypoo

[mam"MATT"us]

Different civilizations are likely to have have different base mathmatics. I don't know it could be different beyond that but it might be.

[NSX]

Cool stuff dave.

 

Here's some neat stuff I googled:

 

http://temporal_science.tripod.com/introduction/special3.htm

 

Really cool gifs:

http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/sr/hypercube.html

omg:

[YT2095]

Rasori said in post #27 :

But by putting our primes doesn't mean that they are the same to them, so they may just think that we came up with random lines and scribbles and said 'this is a prime!' because to them, our 3 could be like %^#$!.

 

Huh?

 

3 of ANYTHING even little dots is still 3, and so if primes are represented as quantities or regular Beep Beep sequences as opposed to drawing OUR number "3" is valid, what`s the problem here?

 

Mooeypoo: life here is defined roughly by 7 characteristics

Movement

Resiration

Sensitivity

Nourishment (requiring food)

Excretia (waste products)

Reproduction

and Growth

 

if anything has all these atributes, it is said to be alive. personaly I think that is a pretty fair and broad deffinition, and it`s certainly the ones that we look for in the space missions.

[mooeypoo]

What about intelligence?

 

 

By the way -- three of anything is *not* always three. That's the point of the fourth dimention (time) and the possibility that what YOU concider three might be actually 5 in a different dimention.

 

My point here, though, is not even the dimentions themselves but the possibility that we think DIFFERENTLY than other creatures - in such a sense that maths will not be their way to calculate things.

 

They might have the perception of the fourth dimention of time, in which the CURRENT numbers (maths!) means absolutely nothing.

 

I'm throwing hypothetical ideas to make my point. I don't know how many dimentions there are, if any, and what kind of extra-stuff you suddently understand when you can intercept those dimentions - but my point is that ANYTHING is possible.

 

We shouldn't close our minds. Maths is *our* way of understanding.

Aliens most probably use something else we don't even understand.

[Rasori]

How is movement a characteristic of life? If I remember correctly, it has to have all of the seven properties to be considered life by our standards, but trees, for example, don't move, yet they are considered living.

[YT2095]

Rasori said in post #33 :

How is movement a characteristic of life? If I remember correctly, it has to have all of the seven properties to be considered life by our standards, but trees, for example, don't move, yet they are considered living.

 

LOL, of course trees and plants move!

their leaves will follow sunlight or droop when the weather turns colder at night to try and keep in heat, try planting a tree sidways, or turning an existing baby tree on it side, after a while it will start to turn upwards again at 90 degrees, it recognises gravity. all plants move, look up the words; photonastic movement, seismonastic movements, chemonastic movements, tactic movements and thigmotropism. thats how and why plants move

[Sayonara]

In this respect "movement" and "sensitivity" ought to be considered together.

[YT2095]

Agreed, as I`de equate in many instances nourishment and excretion together. being a system, it`s very difficult to actualy seperate the attributes.

I would have been more impressed if "Fire" was used as an example of life (though it also has flaws) as opposed to Plants not moving though! LOL

 

with respect to the Maths part of this arg, it`s nothing at all to do with how many dimensions are perceived how "Alien" a species is, or what they use to represent a finite quantity, the rules will ALWAYS be the same

ergo: it`s Universal

[Sayonara]

By the way -- three of anything is *not* always three. That's the point of the fourth dimention (time) and the possibility that what YOU concider three might be actually 5 in a different dimention.

You are getting confused between reality and perception.

 

If I look at a sheet of paper that rests in axis XY, but I look at it so that I am seeing plane YZ, I won't see any of the fifteen dots that are drawn on it. That doesn't meant that they aren't there, it just means I don't perceive them.

 

Does that mean that zero in three dimensions is the same as fifteen in 2 dimensions? No.

 

Clumsy example but you get the idea

[JaKiri]

mooeypoo said in post #32 :

By the way -- three of anything is *not* always three. That's the point of the fourth dimention (time) and the possibility that what YOU concider three might be actually 5 in a different dimention.

 

Maths is abstract you ninnyhammer.

[Sayonara]

Also - bear in mind that an ability to accurately measure and predict the reality around it would be a prerequisite for any species that was attempting to develop a technology (travel, communications) that might result in this thread's replies being tested.

 

The universe consistently proves its indifference when it comes to human opinion

[YT2095]

and if 3 = 5 in dimension X, then it must still follow a mathematical principal. to our term 3 is the sum of 1+1+1, and that law is imutable, in dimension X their laws will be imutable as well, but they will still be laws, and obey mathematical principals to the letter.

no one EVER stated that we KNOW all these laws, only that they are there and apply. it`s an inescapable truism

[JaKiri]

YT2095 said in post #40 :

and if 3 = 5 in dimension X, then it must still follow a mathematical principal. to our term 3 is the sum of 1+1+1, and that law is imutable, in dimension X their laws will be imutable as well, but they will still be laws, and obey mathematical principals to the letter.

no one EVER stated that we KNOW all these laws, only that they are there and apply. it`s an inescapable truism

 

'3' '=' and '5' are just symbols. The mathematics underneath will still be identical even if you randomly swap the meanings over.

 

Furthermore,

 

'Beep beep (pause) beep beep beep (pause) beep beep beep beep beep (etc)' can only be interpreted mathematically as the prime numbers, no matter the base.

[Sayonara]

Assuming of course that the listener has figured out that primes exist, and what qualifies them as such.

 

If not, they will simply not recognise the sequence. That does not mean that the underlying meaning of the maths changes or disappears.

[YT2095]

thnx! that`s what I`ve been trying to get across all this time.

the Principals remain constant regardless of the symbols, this many plus this many will equal this many, it`s the PLUS word that`s the key, the concept of addition or subtraction.

I feel somewhat vindicated now