Bush vetoes embryonic stem-cell bill

[Pangloss]

Doesn't the religious/denial-of-science/miscomprehension element of our society have a lot of political weight due to ties to via their support for the Republican Party?

 

Well, the conservative wing of the religious/denial-of-science/miscomprehension element of our society has more influence on the Republican party than the liberal wing of the religious/denial-of-science/miscomprehension element of our society has on the Democratic party. That's not quite the same thing. Baptist ministers would love to have the same influence on Democrats that evangelist ministers have on Republicans. They're just not willing to do what it would take to gain that influence, which would be to vote Republican for a while. I guess it's easier for them to stamp their feet and cry about social injustice and focus on "the WAY things were done" instead of what was ACTUALLY done. They're quite a pathetic lot, IMO. But I'm grateful for every day that they remain in ignorance about how to solve that problem.

 

Put another way, James Dobson gets the ear of the President and is warmly received on the Hill, no matter what the subject. But Democrats avoid catholic or baptist ministers like the plague. The Democratic "Big Tent" is very much a thing of the past, and the modern Democratic party has very little interest in ressurecting it.

 

That doesn't actually change my point, btw, which would still be true even if 99.99% of it were coming from the far right. It was a minor point; I wasn't trying to suggest that the religious left is a major player on this subject.

[bascule]

What matters more, a potential life or a potential cure?

 

-- Colbert

 

Hmm, from a Utilitarian perspective, the answer is obvious...

[walrusman]

What matters more, a potential life or a potential cure?

 

-- Colbert

 

Well, if that potential life was going to grow up and cure cancer or AIDS then I guess I'd say potential life matters more...

 

As far as a utilitarian perspective, we could use that logic to sacrifice people on life support, the elderly, mentally disabled...etc.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for embryonic stem cell research because they're currently murdering these embryos due to surplus. If we're going to disregard life to that extent, then we might as well get something useful out of it.

[Sisyphus]

Yeah, and think of all the potential lives lost every time you masturbate, or every time a woman has her period! Any of those billions of sperm and eggs could be united to grow up and cure AIDS! Imagine how many disease cures we're missing out on!

[walrusman]

Yeah, and think of all the potential lives lost every time you masturbate, or every time a woman has her period! Any of those billions of sperm and eggs could be united to grow up and cure AIDS! Imagine how many disease cures we're missing out on!

 

That's silly. Millions of sperm will die even if the egg is fertilized, that's in the design. There is no more a human life in the egg or that sperm than in a living cell. No harm, no foul. But when you do fertilize an egg...now we have human potential.

 

I'm just saying the utilitarian argument isn't sound. Hitler could have used that verbage. And no one can guess the future life potential of an embryo - no one.

[Sisyphus]

Sure, an egg by itself isn't potential, but a separate egg and sperm cell is! And there are plenty of sperm to go around, so any woman who has her period is a murderer. "Thanks for having sex, mom!"

[Mokele]

Of course, any egg also has the potential to be the next Hitler.

 

And no one can guess the future life potential of an embryo - no one.

 

A dead-end job in a cubicle, a morgage, and a cheating spouse.

 

Hey, I'll be right 80% of the time!

[walrusman]

Sure, an egg by itself isn't potential, but a separate egg and sperm cell is! And there are plenty of sperm to go around, so any woman who has her period is a murderer. "Thanks for having sex, mom!"

 

Do I really have to say this? As long as they're separate, we don't have any issues. But once they come together, they are a potential human. Period. I'm not a right to lifer, I'm just being pragmatic. If you're going to condemn masturbation and periods to murder to demonstrate your point using obsurdity, then what about the other millions of sperm that died during the act of conception?

 

You can't just ignore facts because we want to cure spinal cord injury or grow new limbs for people. We have to be honest and admit we're killing babies. The thing is, we're already killing babies in the thousands every year in fertility clinics to make room for more. We're obviously ok with it or we wouldn't do it. The religious folks are ok with it too or they would be demonstrating, fighting for legislation or bombing the trashman when he comes to take them away.

 

None of this is happening. So, let's use them instead...

[Sisyphus]

How is a separate sperm and egg not a potential human? And so definitively one once they do what they're trying desperately to do? "Period?"

 

And yes, clearly I'm making a point from aburdity. The point being that a potential human isn't a human, and it's absurd to say so. And yes, the fact that this research isn't even destroying potential people (they're already destroyed), should make that irrelevant, but nonetheless that is what the debate is about at its core. You can be against abortion and pro stem cell research, and many are. But who ever heard of vice versa? No one, because those who are against it are afraid it will make abortion seem acceptable.

[walrusman]

How is a separate sperm and egg not a potential human? And so definitively one once they do what they're trying desperately to do? "Period?"

 

Because neither will become a human on it's own, so that means they are not a potential human. When they come together, they will become a human - you actually have to step in to stop that from happening. That's why they freeze them.

 

Once again...I'm just stating the obvious while others try to rationalize their way around it.

[Sisyphus]

You have to step in to stop a sperm from entering the egg, too. It will certainly try its darndest!

[walrusman]

You have to step in to stop a sperm from entering the egg, too. It will certainly try its darndest!

 

Some women have this down to an art...that's why we try to get them drunk first.

[JHAQ]

From that point of view the mentally ill or even to some extent autistic fill the same catagory. and they recently(2001?) recieved protection from the death penalty in Texas, and that seemed to go over well with most.

 

 

 

Not quite as sentient persons would be anticipatorily AWARE of their potential fate if they became a societal burden .